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#11439 - 08/10/06 03:17 PM # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
I have a bunch of #3 Victor & B&L longsprings. I bought these traps new, and I haven't used them for years. Just curious, if they were your traps and you wanted to put them on the line, what modifications would you do to make them better? Pan tension, is a big concern. Thanks. smile

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#11440 - 08/10/06 03:21 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
If you really serious, put PIT kits on them. And center mount the chain, and add swivels.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11441 - 08/10/06 07:55 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Hal, yeah, I'm serious. I was hoping that someone came up with the "miracle-cure" for longsprings. You're a big longspring fan, or used to be, if memory serves? I've never installed a PIT system on any of my equipment, that's why my longsprings, jumps haven't seen daylight for years. If I could get the "pan tension" to 1.5# or better, I'd be satisfied. smile

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#11442 - 08/10/06 09:17 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Then install the PIT kits. They're $39.00 per dozen.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11443 - 08/10/06 09:20 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Either pit them or get Dobbins ADUSTMENT OF LEGHOLD TRAPS
FOR GREATER PROFIT

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#11444 - 08/11/06 11:26 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
I read the description about the PIT system. Is 4 # of pan-tension, as light as it will go on a #3 LS? Or can you tweak them some?

I think Charlie, reccommended re-modeling the "hump", and installing a brass bolt for the tension. Seems labor intense.

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#11445 - 08/11/06 01:57 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
It can be done that way, but it's a whole lot of work. Remember, Charles wrote that book before the PIT system was developed.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11446 - 08/11/06 02:22 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Ric Online   content


Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3663
Loc: Wellington,OH=USA
I have made some #3 ls's pan tension adjustable.Belive me it is much more cost efficient to buy the PIT system for $40 a dz.

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#11447 - 08/11/06 03:49 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
I have tweeked the pit pans some, BUT not to my liking. The problem I have always had with the pit system is you bend the dog to change the pan tension. What happens when you catch a coyote and it bends the dog just a little? It could happen. Do you change the trap after every catch to check pan tension? I dont have time for that.

I put the hump cross piece in a vice to straightin it out, weld a new cross piece to it, already set up for a post pan.

After reading the response from ric I went to the shop and put a post pan on a #3 I traded for. 20 minutes from start to finish. It takes longer to build the "ears" the pan bolts to than any thing else.

I'm not trying to start a argument or take a sale away from Hal. Just trying to show there is more than one way to modify a trap. cool

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#11448 - 08/11/06 05:11 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
"The problem I have always had with the pit system is you bend the dog to change the pan tension. What happens when you catch a coyote and it bends the dog just a little? It could happen. Do you change the trap after every catch to check pan tension? I dont have time for that."

In truth bending the dog just a little is going to cause very little difference in pan tension. One of the advantages of the PIT system is that it durable and replicable from one setting of the trap to the next.

You will get infinitely more variation in pan tension from catch to catch with a nut and bolt system which relies on friction, and that is a system that requires constant adjustment. On a PIT system there is nothing to adjust, thus nothing to go out of adjustment.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11449 - 08/11/06 07:58 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
nvbobcat Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Nevada
If you want to spend some time instead of money to get pan tension to an old style longspring there are several things you can do. The first thing is to take as much wobble out of the pan as possible. I've used three ways to do this. Take a sledge hammer, lay the trap on heavy vise or on a piece of railroad tie on the concrete. Pound the cross hump on the side just enough to close it some and take the play out of the pan. A litle at a time. After you do a couple you will get a feel for this and be able to do it fairly fast. The second way is to slip 2-3 strands of tie wire thru the round part of the pan connection to the hump, and wrap these wires around the hump. (lynx-cat on trapperman shared that with us) The last way I have been doing it is to take 2 - 1/4 inch nuts and put one on each side of the pan stem and weld them to the hump, slightly to the bottom inside. This will take most of the wobble out of the pan. If the nuts are to loose, you can squeeze them together with a large pair of channel locks. (this last way is my favorite) Then after you take out a lot of the pan wobble you can add pan tension by using a small triangle file and putting a notch in the pan and in the dog. These notches will fit together when the trap is set. This is called the "Miles trigger". It's detailed in his coyote trapping book. And there you have it! Essentially free and the more you do the faster it gets to do.

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#11450 - 08/13/06 12:05 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
I have a couple traps with the Miles Instant Trigger, somewhere. The way my traps are "tuned", i really don't have much trouble with pan-wobble, if it moves, it's fired. (usually while i still have my fingers nearby). I've been thinking... The quickest, easiest, cheapest way, would be to set the trap and put a drop of Krazy-Glue on the notch and dog-end. laugh laugh

Seriously, I thought about using a piece of "closed-cell" foam under the end of the pan, opposite the dog. I played with one today, and bumped the pan=tension up above 2#. Also, thought about putting a 1/4" or 3/8" section of "garden-hose" under the pan, on the outside edge. It would only need to bend/squash 1/16" before the trap fired. Biggest problem I see is, the colder it gets, the stiffer/harder these items will become. And increase pan tension. One other thing, wonder what would happen if a person would wedge a piece of "wire-spring" (the same type of spring as in a shotgun's magazine) up under the pan? I see problems with all of these, but still thinking. smile

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#11451 - 08/14/06 11:41 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
I've been thinking again. What I'm going to try and explain in a second, will make some of you say: DUH!

I've read Hal's post about the PIT system 3 or 4 times. Now, it all makes sense.

Up-front, I'm playing with a #3 B & L longspring. My #3 Victors are nearly identical and should work the same. Was thinking, if it's a hassel to move the pan's "pivot-point", why can't we move the notch? I used the bench-grinder to move the "notch" forward, about 1/4", from it's original point. (Putting the notch towards the center of the trap. Looking at the pans pivot-point, my notch is approximately at a 45* angle, nearer the center of the trap.) At first, I figured I'd need to "extend" the dog, but, all I needed to do was bend the "cross-frame" in 1/4" or so. Just like trying to level the pan. I don't have a "tension" tester, but it'll support a 20 ounce "pop" bottle full of water. (On my digital scales, a full bottle weighs 1.46 pounds.) I'm using the original pan, dog, and you should be able to "re-model" one in 5 minutes or less. Same principal as the PIT system. You guys tinker with that info, it'll work. Been thinking we'll call it the "Redsnow Method". cool

I did take a few pictures, not sure how to post pictures yet, if anyone would like to post them PM your e-mail. smile

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#11452 - 08/14/06 03:37 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Yes!

If there is enough shank on the pan, you can do exactly that.


If you cut the notch back to the blue dotted line, you would gain some positive pan tension.

I did that with the original pans on the Herters traps I talked about in the PIT thread. But I could only get 2 lbs of tension before I ran out of notch, and I wanted 4 lbs.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11453 - 08/15/06 01:08 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Hal, your diagram above shows exactly how I modified my pans, better than my pictures would. I just finished the "rough-cut" on 13 #3's, it took me 12 minutes for the first 6 traps. I'll need to finish, and do the "touch-up" work with a file. Should only take a few strokes each. I grabbed the traps as I came to them in the shed, 3 were Victors and the rest B & L. I don't have any "spare" pans, so didn't want to mess them up. Not sure if you can go 4# tension or not? They do have another 1/4" or so of travel, before the "dog-eye" would be against the jaw. Not sure?

Honestly, I was thinking about the Herters in your PIT thread, then thought about my Newhouse traps. Noticed how you moved the "point of contact" closer to the pivot-point. . . to decrease tension. Then it clicked. S. Newhouse was years ahead of the rest of us. I have a #15 Newhouse/Kenwood (bear trap) here at work, an early one, hand=forged springs and all. Just looked at it last night, the "notch" is 15/16" past the pivot. I suspect the pan on that trap weighs 2#, or more? The info has been under our nose since 1880, glad it's finally out in the open.

Mr. Dobbins would be proud of this thread. smile

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#11454 - 08/31/06 10:11 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
smitty Offline
Member

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 75
Loc: Central Indiana
You can remove the pan, flatten the hump from the crossframe & weld-on new panposts. Weld the stock pan closed, redrill it & the posts for a proper-sized panbolt, and run as much....or as little tension as you want, without the wobble.


I'd designed & had punched, a few "conversion kits" for the #1.5 & #2 longs, but evidently couldn't make them cheap enough to be cost effective, even though they were basically the same price as PIT pans.

It involved drilling-out the 2 spotwelds under the crossframe, popping it (crossframe) off, and either welding, or bolting the new crossframe on, reusing the stock pan & dog.




Smitty

(Edit: Photos archived. -- Hal)

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#11455 - 09/02/06 12:43 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
That's a good looking set-up. Shame they didn't come out stock with a pan-bolt. I'm still working on my stack of #3's, just cut the chains off, and adding swivels now. (by the way, you can modify #3 jumps the same way) I've tried to eliminate some of the "slop" in the pans by hammering the "hump", works some. I believe I'll try a "U" shaped piece of 10 or 12 gauge copper-wire, stuffed down one side of the pan and twisted tight under the "hump." That should help more, but don't think it's possible to get it to break like a guns-trigger. Without welding, and re-drilling the hole.
Now I'm having trouble getting them center-swiveled. I was planning to use 5 or 6 links of #2 or #3 straight-link machine chain, around the frame. You can't buy that size chain in this town. I could use a "cold-shut", but may try to use a link of 3/16" machine chain. Could cut it with the saw and spread the link over the frame, and then weld it closed. What would be the easiest/cheapest way to center-swivel them? smile

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#11456 - 09/02/06 02:56 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Once again, compliments of the Paws-I-Trip folks are these center locators. They aren't the cheapest way to go. But they are fast, and don't require welding. Just crimp the ears down.



And if you want to go whole-hog, there is a long yoked PIT swivel that can easily be used with the center locator. The long flat swivel lays down better under the trap, than does an ordinary swivel.



smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11457 - 09/02/06 10:24 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Paul Dobbins Offline
Member

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 119
Loc: Goldsboro, NC
I agree with Hal, its hard to beat the Paws-I-Trip pans to make the long springs into decent traps. They're quick and easy.

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#11458 - 09/03/06 08:15 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Guys what about going with a j-hook inserted through the hole in the base(drill if necessary) and then using two-three links of chain and add another double(box) swivel. Now this strictly for traps shown here #1 1/2 longspring and #2 dbls. For the #3-4 dbls traps used for larger animals I advocate base plate or use Paws-I-Trip like mentioned.

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#11459 - 09/03/06 09:11 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Years ago I swiveled some of my #3's the same way that Triumph #3's were swiveled, I drilled a 1/4" hole in the end of the cross-frame, across from the dog, and put a J-hook through the hole, into the double swivel. At the time we didn't have coyotes, not sure if the welds would hold a yote after pounding it on the rocks all night? May end up with nothing but the cross-frame? Just measured the frame, it's a smidge over 1" wide, pretty hefty piece of metal. One thing that would work, if a feller could get his hands on some of these "heavy-duty/crunch-proof" swivels after they punched the end holes, and fold/bend it over a piece of 1/4" flat bar-stock. All you'd need to do is slip it over the frame and insert the J-hook. That's what I was thinking, add 4 or 5 inches of chain, and another double swivel, and then the final swivel/drown lock. smile

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#11460 - 09/03/06 10:04 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
I'm not absolutely sure you would get the box swivel reconfigured to fit over the frame of the trap, but if you do it's going to be a close fit. Now, just exactly how are you going to get the end of that j-hook inside that reconfigured swivel (between the smashed swivel and the trap frame) in order to thread it through the holes? smile

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11461 - 09/03/06 10:32 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Sorry, Hal, I was thinking about using the "swivel" before it's twisted and made into a swivel. Just a piece of flat-metal, say 3.5" long X 1/2" wide, (where the "drown-lock" hole is located, center the hole over a flat bar and fold the metal into a U shape). Same page/wavelength now? That's what I was thiniking, it'd be best/stronger without the "drown" hole. It's not going to be perfect, but close enough. Even if it does slide back and forth (between the cross-frame and jaw-tips), would be easier to keep it clean. And should be able to insert the J-hook and add the chain. smile

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#11462 - 09/03/06 12:25 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
No need to be sorry, and we are on the same page. I had that idea myself one time.

A swivel body flattened out is about, 3.5 - 3.75 inches long. What you want to do is wrap that around the trap frame like a box, align the two holes, drop a j-hook down through those holes to hold the box togetherů..

And there you're stuck. If your piece of material is only as long as a swivel body, you will not be able to gain the clearance between the bottom of the trap frame, and fully aligned holes, to allow you to thread that j-hook into position. You might even get the nose of the j-hook started, but you are not going to be able to turn the rest if it in. The head of the rivet will hang up outside the box.

If you want to accomplish what you are talking about, you'll need to make your own "strap" and it will have to be longer than 4 inches. Now, when you achieve a box big enough allow to turn that rivet into place, you will encounter problem #2. If your box is big enough to clear installation of the rivet, it will be very loose on the trap base. When you bed the trap the box begins to stick up above the trap base. In a worst case scenario, the box can get jammed up against the bottom of the pan.

I strongly suspect this is why you don't see any type of fastening system that has a j-hook pivoting at the trap base, unless the j-hook is right through a hole in the trap frame itself.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11463 - 09/03/06 06:57 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Drifter1 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/30/02
Posts: 47
Loc: Stroghurst,IL
I tried a J hook thru the frame of a #11 monty . I had the exact result Hal said . It would jam the pan so the trap couldn't fire . Kind of like the stop bolt Monty put onto the pans of the #2 dogless I have seen .

Since you are welding on the trap anyway , why not add a baseplate and D ring ?

Drifter

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#11464 - 09/03/06 08:40 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Hal, I knew after your last post we were looking at things differently. Not sure how to post pics yet. The picture I sent, I just slapped that one together, while here at work. I've looked at the thing, and really can't see any major problems, it's not "perfect", but should do the job. Only tools I had were 2 slip-joint pliers, a hammer and anvil. If the J=hook is on the same side as the dog, it can't interfere with the pan. If you wanted to keep the "strap" in one place, you could do that by squeezing the open end with vise=grip pliers. I did bend the ends together a tiny-bit, and inserted the J-hook with my fingers. Like I mentioned above the "crush-proof" swivels would be better, but even the regular swivels would last for years. smile

PS, if anyone is willing to post my pics, PM your email, sure would save a lot of typing. smile

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#11465 - 09/04/06 09:27 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Well, it turns out we weren't talking about the same thing. My mistake. Here is a picture Red sent. I think that will work.



smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11466 - 09/04/06 08:08 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Hal, thanks for posting the picture. One picture tells the story. I don't like the idea of "re-bending" the swivel, it'd be better if they were just a "strap" (without the drown hole). I put that one trap together today, added 3 links of "machine" chain, a double-swivel, and the stock chain, and another swivel/drown lock on the end. I can't see any problems. Another thing that may work would be a, say: 2" X 2" piece of "light-gauge" angle. Something like a 1/2" piece of "bed-frame". You could fold it in a vice, and drill the holes. That's a B&L #3, I don't see any reason to base-plate the thing, not sure, I don't believe a yote could bend the frame. One other thing, no welding involved. smile

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#11467 - 09/06/06 05:31 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Otterwater0566 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Austin, AR
Talk about beatin a dead horse, keep it simple...Cut the notches deeper and nite latch em and be done with it after leveleing the pan. If you want more tension turn the springs around further before bedding the trap. 3#'s is easily acheiveable if the springs are still strong.

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#11468 - 09/07/06 07:32 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Beating a dead horse? Gosh, I think it is kind of interesting talking about trap modification.

frown -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#11469 - 09/07/06 02:05 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
Otterwater0566 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Austin, AR
Not trying to offend, trap mod's are always interesting. My point was to back up the pic's showing the simple way to notch the pan. To me, money would be better spent on new coil spring traps rather than extensively modifying old traps....I have many ls and dls traps that are still very strong and I notched and nite latched them. The depth and angle of the notch can increase pan tension...JMO.

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#11470 - 09/07/06 02:44 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
skipjacks Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Pennsylvania
I didn't know that you could modify traps, and it has been pretty interesting to me. I have some old long springs that need modified.

I have a lot to learn.

Thanks for all the info!

Skip

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#11471 - 09/07/06 09:30 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
redsnow Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: WV
Dead Horse???? :rolleyes: In order to view/understand this post, you'll need to go back to the top and read the entire thread! This is partly my thread, and we've accomplished everything I was interested in and more.

If you read all of it, I was advised to install the PIT pans, later the PIT center-swivel, and the "long-yoke swivels". The PIT pans are $40 a dozen, the center-swivels are another $12 per dozen, and the long-yoke swivels are probably another $10 per dozen. (couldn't find a price on Hal's site) That's $62.00 a dozen, heck, I didn't pay that much for the traps new. Sure, I could come off of $250, and have my #3's "up-to-date". Just talked to a guy that I used to work with, he's the foreman, over the maintenence crew, at a company I used to work for. I sent him a "blue-print" of the straps I need, so Friday evening while they are sitting around with their thumbs up their butts, my straps will be finished. (no charge) You've got to look at the fine-print, and use a little "Country Boy Logic". J-hooks are about 10 cents each. What would you rather spend: $250.00, or $4.20? The main thing is, I've got 42 strong #3's ready for season. wink

I thought it was interesting, also. smile

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#11472 - 09/09/06 05:31 AM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ???
skipjacks Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Pennsylvania
my no 1 ls they are not fast as they were. would these tech work too make faster sounds this is for unwanted. like grinners my traps are about 20 years old from when iwas a kid what can i do.or bye new ones. don't have lots of money

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#25461 - 10/25/17 01:34 PM Re: # 3 Long-Spring Modifications. ??? [Re: redsnow]
Archive Offline


Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 1116
Dated for search.

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