Care to share the evaluation from your perspective as the difference in the BMP's on canines and cats pertaning to the chain/trap attachment point ?

To the best of my knowledge, a BMP for cats has yet to be promulgated.

But, I will share this -- chains and/or fastening systems were not evaluated as part of the BMP study so far. And I don’t expect it in the future.

However, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.

-- Hal

Thank you and next topic.......

what is the hoopala on center swivelin for if its not BMP based ?

You avoided the comments I asked for.

I fear that far too many trappers get the cart ahead of the horse on these BMPs. BMPs are not responsible for research and development. In fact, they are precluded from doing R&D work. (Too bad in my opinion.) The BMPs are undertaken to "…identify techniques and traps that address the welfare of trapped animals…" (The bolding is mine.)

The key word here is "identify". The vast majority of improvements to traps and techniques, in all aspects including animal welfare, have come at the initiative and through the efforts of trappers. We as trappers are the ones who have always been responsible for improved animal welfare -- not the government, not the manufacturers -- the trappers!

So, if there is going to be continued improvement in animal welfare, trappers are going to have to come up with it so the government can "identify" it. If it ain't there, you can't identify it.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like fastening systems are under scrutiny. So, we are on our own here. Some folks, myself included, think that center swiveling leads to improved animal welfare.

I'll ask again, what are your thoughts on that?

-- Hal

Isnt this case and point of the BMP process as a whole ?

I find it odd that if any certain trap would be tested for physical damage to the animal either from self infliction or trap inflicted without looking at the trap/ chain attachment point.

I do not have alot of experience w/ coyotes, so I will leave them out. My red fox trapping to any extent goes back years ago before I used center swiveled traps......hence I have to leave them out also because of a lack of comparison.

Grey fox are different, they are just fighters to the end . In my experience with them, traps w/ center swiveling help a considerable bit. I have noticed a vast difference between the two points of attachment with grey fox. Not so w/ cats tho, while the secondary damage may be there , the external show no difference.

Come on Hal...........feedback ?

Feedback on what?

They don't have a cat bmp yet, and frankly I'm not so deeply steeped in this to know whether one is planned for the near future or how far down the road -- if ever -- if this thing don't run out of steam and/or funds.

So far, trappers have been right on the money at guessing which traps and systems will pass muster for the animals that have been observed.

I'm gonna stick my neck out, right now, and guess that a 5-1/2" two coil trap and a 5" two coil trap, out of the box, would pass muster for bobcat.

Now, you tell me, from experience, how large could you go, using what kind of system, and still not see damage in cats? And how small could you go, and still hold them reliably? Would a 4.5", two coil, grab and hold enough cats to allow it to pass the efficiency criteria? What would you like to see tested in a cat BMP?


-- Hal

Dont be a stickler if ya ask someone to engage

As for cats, I see no ceiling in my state as far as jaw spread is concerned......I have cought 10 pound kittens w/ stock Bridger #3's as well as fully tricked traps also with not even a scratch on them. One cannot compare the cats cought verses the incidentals of grey fox that one must trap out before you can work on the cats....thats the problem !

As for the smaller traps.......holding a cat is easy, even my 2 toes, having a thrown foot is also common on the smallish traps. Small traps and cat trappin equates to lots of misses ......

To answer your question per cats? I would prefer a 6 inch trap myself, as far as the configuration of said trap, to me it makes no difference other than a smallish pan.

A 4.5 inch trap will hold a cat just as fine as a 6 inch one will...........you just wont miss as many.

BTW.......this has gone off topic dont ya think ? Jaw spread does not have any thing to do w/ what the topic matter is or was ???

Your original question was:

"Care to share the evaluation from your perspective as the difference in the BMP's on canines and cats pertaning to the chain/trap attachment point ?"

There is no BMP on cats. There is no evaluation of chain/trap attachment. If we don't go off topic -- we have nothing to talk about!

-- Hal

Read the above again concerning fox ......then go back to this..........

You are the most knowledgable person I know on this BMP stuff..........I want to know why chain attachment was not used as part of the system of test to understand as you put it animal welfare

You may not know the reason , but Im sure you have a theory !!

You are worthless when you get home from Tennessee...... Tell Joyce to quit acten like a teenager , or is it you ??

How could the BMP process be allowed to run out of funds? I thought the USA signed a treaty with the EU to develop new trapping standards and that is what the BMP is about? If BMP is dropped will US furs be allowed in the EU? Canada and Russia signed a treaty with the EU along the same lines which goes into effect in 2007. When is the US/EU treaty supposed to take effect?

I should not have been so flippant. I don't think Congress is going to stop fund the BMP study.

As for this: "I thought the USA signed a treaty with the EU to develop new trapping standards and that is what the BMP is about?"

That's not entirely accurate. We are not developing standards. Standards are set and we are identifying traps that meet those standards.

For some of you who may not have history on this, the original EU demand was that North Americans completely abandon foothold traps and only use bodygrips. That was altered to be "or comply to human trapping standards."

We have determined that a number of common foothold traps, comply to humane trapping standards, for a number of animals. I strongly suspect that we will find some acceptable foothold traps that can be used on bobcats as well, when the time comes.

As for this fastening system thing. Fastening systems probably should be analyzed, maybe at a later date. For right now, we have some very standard traps, with very standard fastening systems, that are passing muster. While we could recommend improvements in some instances, they wouldn't necessarily need be made mandatory.

-- Hal

That comment there tho, realizes the point made by many to the assumption that the BMP testing is for future law making and not just a degree of suggestion.

Which is fact and which is fallacy ? You just contradicted the whole thesis in which the BMP's were established .

I shouldn’t have use the term “mandatory”.

However, yes, there is always the possibility that this could be used in “law making”. But... How come nobody ever sees the other side of that coin???????

Suppose the Animal Equality Kooks come to take your trapping away in your
state? Now, you’ve got a scientific study that says trapping, and foot traps in particular are humane. So... they don’t make a law taking away your trapping.

In the end, it will ultimately be up to each state to regulate trapping – no different than it is now.

-- Hal

I take it you cannot argue a point just for the sake of arguing......I always felt that discussions on any subject matter were educational, the beliefs wether for or against are a mute point as long as facts are presented.

How so? That's exactly what I'm doing.

That, in fact, is the moot point. The BMPs are a reality -- in published form. Being for or against them, will not make them go away.

Again, how they may, or may not, be implemented will be up to the individual states. The only thing the Fed's have any say so in is migratory birds and endangered species. As far as trapping equipment -- that is up to the individual states to regulate.

That being the case, it distinctly behooves every state trapping association to develop a strong working relationship with their with their F&G department to see that fair regulations are maintained for the trappers of their state. I'm sure you will be bringing your own talents to bear in your home state of NC.

As for Ohio, I'm not much concerned about what will go on here. I don't believe there is any other trappers' association, anywhere else in the country, that can match OSTA for having influence with our DOW when it comes to trapping regulations.

Again, if you are concerned about these BMPs, get involved with your state trappers' association to insure a positive outcome.

-- Hal

was that so hard ? Geez, getting you to talk is like pullin teeth.......... Thank-You !

RE:”Again, how they may, or may not, be implemented will be up to the individual states. The only thing the Fed's have any say so in is migratory birds and endangered species. As far as trapping equipment -- that is up to the individual states to regulate.”

Sounds good.

However history suggests that hain’t how it works.

Remember the 55 mph speed limit?

The current sniff-a-glass-of-wine-blood-alcohol-threshold?

Or, the one that I find extremely amusing, the Law Schools and their Professors that just found out they are no different than state and local governments with regards to Uncle Sam tellin’ ‘em what in the ‘L they will and won’t do.

Remember the Golden Rule.

Ain’t nobody got more gold than Uncle Sam.

Quoting Hal above: "there is always the possibility that this could be used in “law making”."

This potential is one very important reason why trappers should remain directly involved in this process.

-- Hal

Hal...sir...believe it or not ...all states DNR personal are not always receptive to trappers and their associations thoughts and ideas. I have read this from yourself and others (like Wiley) and have always cringed. True, you trappers in Ohio have a working relationship and I envy that, but others like my state assoc. do not. we can try until we are blue in the face to recommend ideas input and still ...nothing.
It sounds like Michigan trappers are experiencing a bit of this also.
I think Brocker has a very valid point..."they" will tell us what we will do.

Endeavor to persevere.

-- Hal

Don't take Hal's "Endeavor to persevere" comment lightly. There was a time when the OSTA and the ODOW had what both organizations would call a terrible relationship. It took a lot of time and uderstanding on both sides. And just because we now have a real good relationship does not mean that we agree 100% of time. However, there is respect on both sides and we work together for the betterment of not just trapping, but all outdoor endeavors in Ohio.

Endeavor to persevere.
We will endeavor to persevere, and when we have thought about that long enough we will declare war, and then we will be banished to Oklahoma, or Maryland or some other place that has banned the leghold trap. I have reservations about that!

Good info guys....something to ponder....when trying to "untie our hands"....lol! It is amazing how a few personalities can change the course for the entire states trappers.

Dated for search.