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#18185 - 04/30/07 11:44 PM Dye or Dip
Trappergreen1990 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
With all the stuff you can put on your traps, What are people usding and why.

I've used sumack and home made logwood from old rotted barn beams for years with excellent results. Followed by parafin and bees wax on top of the water. And did so as much due to cost and budget.

This last year I decided to splurge and spent about $15 on 2 pounds of logwood dye and 5 pounds of wax (figuring I would wax traps the right way).

I must say I was very impressed. I started with a 40quart container and one pound of dye and just did things the same way I had with my old home brew.

Clean lightly rusted traps, boiled for about an hour. Then left to sit overnight and brought to a hot enough boild so they would dry almost immediately when removed. I then dipped and rolled them in the pot with the wax for about 15 to 30 seconds until the wax stopped sizzling. Then took them out and hung up to dry,

I don't wax conibears. And that first pound of brown logwood dye did an excellent job on almost 100 traps from #1 jumps to #4 DLS and #3/4 coils, conis, etc. I was very peasently syrprised as the package estimated about half that much.

I have bought so many used traps with various dips. Some are more like paint in that they need to be almost ground off even after soaking in gas or thinner. Other have been so messy I thought they had been dipped in roofing tar.

The big problem is when rust starts. It's near impossible to dye these dipped traps as the dye and wax process seems to cause the remaining dip to flake. Leaving more bare metal to rust. And we all know that rust is a land trappers enemy.

I personally have no use for dips. Some people talk about them for water traps like conibears. Everyone of my conibears I've bought used that were dipped, still needed to be scraped at the trigger spots. So you might as well just dye them. It's still cheaper in the long run and you get a better job.

Some people are going to say they don't have time or a way to boil traps. And they are going to keep the dip companies in business a little longer. I will share this from some of the guys I've trapped with, we will not use a dipped trap on land. When some of us did we were experimenting with not waxing the logwood dyed traps and they out caught dipped traps better than 4 to 1.

Maybe we were doing something wrong with the dip or it may have been the gasoline dip at the time.

Share your thoughts and experiences on this. Also any ideas for getting the spead dip off traps easy (muriatic or sulfuric acid/water mix don't work) other than soaking in gas for days and then wire brushing them. Summer time is almost here and that's the time to tackle chores like this.

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#18186 - 05/01/07 06:17 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Dale F Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/01
Posts: 552
Loc: Erie, IL
I use speed dip on the bodygrips and it works great, I don't dip them every year unless they need it and usually a few do, same with footholds only the little bit of canine trapping I do I use staghorn sumac tops to boil them and then wax. Never had a problem with the triggers on bodygrips like you mentioned. As far as the 4 to 1 catch ratio, I assume your talking canines or I would strongly disagree with you there.

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#18187 - 05/25/07 11:35 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Grampa Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 50
Loc: Vermont
I'm a strictly brown logwood dye guy these days. I've used summack berries as well in the past.

I deal with well over 500 traps each year and people are always coming to me to buy what they are not using.

My traps that I have properly (in my view) prepared have a good solid black dyed color and thin coat of wax (except body grips). The dye job if done right should be almost like bluing and will protect the trap from rusting to a certain extent.

When it comes time to get these ready the next year, many are just redyed and waxed. A few new a more thorough cleaning/boiling in lye.

he many that I obtain from others tend to need several steps. I first boil in lye solution to remove oils, dirt, some rust, old wax. If I'm lucky, that's it and they go in the pile to be dyed and waxed later. These are generally the ones that have been cared for and don't have layers of crusted rust along with a couple different dyes, dips, and others.

Then I wash and scrub the ones that need more work. That generally means soaking in acid mix to loosten and remove rust. Then they are boiled again. Then if they were dipped, I need to soak in gasoline and then scub and boil in lye again. These often need another soak in the acid mix because when gasoline dip is used over rust, the rust generally keeps working. Just lik if you were to use it to repair your car.

It's my personal preference, but the only time I approve of dip is when it's being used on new unrusty bodygrips or water traps and you have a metheod to keep them separate from others. In this case, dip can work very well.

Then there's the part of me that like logwood dye because I can get 50 to 75 traps done and the time spent boiling is not wasted. I'm adjusting traps, putting on chains and stakes, checking baits and lures, etc. :p

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#18188 - 05/26/07 08:55 AM Re: Dye or Dip
silverado Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 9
Loc: virginia
I always heard that Dye does not prevent rust it,s the wax that does that.....Am I mistaken?....Like I said I'm very new... and I'm in no way saying your wrong. Just tryin to get the straight scoop
Jim

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#18189 - 05/26/07 10:11 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9936
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Logwood dye offers approximately the same degree of protection to a trap, as bluing does to a gun barrel. Lay your gun underwater for a few days, or bury it in the dirt for a few days, and you can determine just how effective this rust protection is.

Wax those traps. smile

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18190 - 05/26/07 10:20 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Grampa Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 50
Loc: Vermont
I agree with you Hal 100%. Logwood dye is a treatment of the metal rather than a coat like a dip does and to protect that treatment you must wax. Thanks I wasn't clear on that.

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#18191 - 05/27/07 12:53 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Bogmaster Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Lakeland,Mn.
A lot of problems concerning dipping, is from the use of gasoline .Coleman fuel(white gas)is what dip should be mixed with.Our gasoline , has to many additives.If you want sticky,stinky traps--use gasoline.
I am basically a water trapper, I quit dye and wax , years ago.
I single dip my traps, and never have to scrape 330 dogs or triggers.The key here is to dilute your dip correctly.If you do not use enough coleman fuel, you will end up scraping.
Like anything else, experience helps. The more you dip, the better you get. And the better your dipped traps, turn out and perform.
Tom Olson

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#18192 - 05/27/07 06:41 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Tom hit it on the head...I use KBL now but have used Blackies, Speed Dip, Seymours and a few others with good results. I use 5 parts Coleman Fuel to one can of KBL. It works good, dries fast and with little or no extra work on my part.

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#18193 - 05/29/07 11:52 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Otterwater0566 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Austin, AR
I switched to dip years ago because of the durability. The sticky long cure time improves greatly w/camp fuel as mentioned above. I triple dip traps and clean triggers, nite latches, etc. and use no wax. I usually catch all the critters I can deal with. A can of flat black spray paint will handle mid season touchups. I still have my dye pot for treating wall hangers and flee market traps. The dye just doesn't hold up to my style of trapping.I still recommend cleaning and rusting new traps even though the dip may be petrol based, the rust is an important catalyst in the process in most "dips".

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#18194 - 05/29/07 12:15 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9936
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Sorry, rust has no catalytic effect whatsoever on either a petroleum or water based dip. In using logwood dye, the rust (iron oxide) combines with the tannin to give a black color, but that is not a catalytic reaction either.

Rust can give a trap "tooth" which may result in a better mechanical bond, but I won't rust traps on purpose if I'm going to dip them.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18195 - 05/30/07 10:58 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Grampa Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 50
Loc: Vermont
I guess we should also look at the why we use dip?

For a hundred plus years trappers used some kind of natural dye, That goes back to even before when wax began. Remember most early trappers were after beaver and the cleaning/dying process was part of the ritual care. Many times these early trappers would pull their traps from one area, take the time to dye them, and put them someplace else. Again this was part of their maintanance and night or down time was for work as they didn't have the distractions we do.

Today we have a couple options to keep our equiptment in top working order all season long with minimal work for the next season. So we can reboil/dye/wax traps during the season as needed. Or we can have enough traps put up where we always have a replacement trap for the one we pull for any reason be it dye/wax, adjustment, etc. Or we can use dip, a chemical mixed with other chemicals to do the job and layer it on thick enough it could deflect a 30-06 bullet and you sometimes need to unstick and readjust everything alover again after you're done.

We all trap for various reasons and there is a naturally traditional nature of trapping. I am one who enjoys that part of it, am willing to take the time to put up 500 plus traps even though I probrably won't have more than a hundred out at any given time and do so the traditional way.

I have also found my traps need a lot less cleaning work as dying & waxing takes much less summer prep than dipping. I like to start with a clean trap and I've seldom seen that easy with dipped traps.

Now before any devoted chemical fans get up set, I base a lot of this on the used traps I handle. I get a lot from guys who switched to dip at some point and never chemically cleaned the rust from their traps and never cleaned them much between seasons for that matter. So what I find is layer and layer of dip with the origional rust that was on the trap, which is not so little now. And because of the nature of dip, all the dirt is stuck in the dip.

So by the time I pay $2 or $3 for that wonderful Montgomery #3 dogless or the old Triumph Easy Set #4 and $1 for everything else, you wish I would pay you more. While I wish you took the time and gave your traps the care they desearve for all the work they do for you, so I wouldn't have to use gas soaks, acid baths, lye boils, and still have to scrub them down to get to a point where I can tag them, adjust them and dye and wax them.

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#18196 - 05/31/07 12:10 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Mike McChurin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 497
Loc: NE Oklahoma
My first season I started out with Stoe's Speed Dip. I was not satisfied with the results. The traps were sticky and tacky. However, I still caught critters using those traps. Yes, even a coyote and a fox.

Then for some reason or another I decided to go with the boil/dye/wax method. I soon got tired of boiling 2-3 times to remove all the old wax. Then trying to make sure the traps were rusty enough to take the dye and then waxing. Then making sure I cleaned all the wax from each dog and pan notch.

I was short on time this last year so I went back to Speed Dip. It was the same batch I had used from my first season back in 2001-2002. Some of the "white" gas had evaporated and I figured I would end up with a nasty gummy mess. So I "test-dipped" a half-dozen traps to see what would happen. Lo and behold, the dip was dry within 30 minutes and there was no tackiness at all. And the traps looked and worked great.

One of those "test" traps (a #3 Northwoods offset) took 2 coyotes last season. And I only trapped for 2 weeks. If I remember correctly the #2 Duke offset that took my other coyote was also dipped.

If done correctly dipped traps are every bit as effective as dyed/waxed traps. I will probably dip all my traps from now on.

Now some of you might be saying one season does not prove anything. However I still used a few dipped traps during the seasons I used dyed/waxed traps and there was NO DISCERNABLE difference.

This is only my experience and I in no way look down on fellows who dye/wax. But, dipping is for me since it is quick and effective.

Mike

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#18197 - 05/31/07 07:56 AM Re: Dye or Dip
NEbowhunter Offline
Member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 574
Loc: Holdrege, Nebraska
I think everyone has their preferences and have made them work, but one of the main points grampa was trying to make is that you've dipped your traps and used them a season and loved it. you plan on it next year. now what is the easy way to get them clean so you can dip them again? that dip doesn't just flake off in a boil. she's on there, and now mixed with some rust and dirt. you can't just dip over the top of that. i've heard of guys using sand in a mixer to get the dip off.
i guess in my opinion its been proved that you can catch an animal in a dipped trap. don't think thats an argument. but there is alot of work to each way of treating a trap. which is more work and time consuming? when you dip a trap, you are still going to have to take the time to run a file through a night latch and dog to tune, just like you would with wax.

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#18198 - 05/31/07 08:01 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9936
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
I soon got tired of boiling 2-3 times to remove all the old wax."

I'm uncertain what you have going on, but one dunk in boiling water should remove all the wax from a trap in about 15 - 20 minutes. In fact, this is the advantage I in find in wax -- you can strip a trap to the bare metal in 15 minutes. Again, I don't know what kind of problems you experienced.

But here is another question, and let's actually base it on your original premise that you had trouble removing the old wax. How do you remove the old dip from your traps at the end of the season? Why would it be more important to remove all of the old wax from a trap, and not be important to remove all the old dip from a trap?

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18199 - 06/01/07 01:47 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Mike McChurin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 497
Loc: NE Oklahoma
I kept having traps come out of the boiling pot(30-45 min. soak in the boiling water) with little "nodules" of wax stuck on the traps here and there. If I was only going to re-wax the traps it was not a problem. But, the dye would not take in spots where the wax was still present.

Here is where I am probably going to catch the most flak frown because I don't strip all the old dip off of the traps after each season. A lot of them are pretty well stripped of dip by season end anyway. I boil them to remove all the gunk (mud, blood, etc...) and make sure they are as clean as I can get them and re-dip.

The problem was never getting all the gunk off of the waxed traps. It was getting all the old wax off.

I haven't had any issues with re-dipping over the remnants of the old dip.

But, I may just be lucky. smile

Mike

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#18200 - 06/01/07 05:29 AM Re: Dye or Dip
animalpest Offline
Member+

Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 197
Loc: Western Australia
I dont use dip or dye anymore. But then I only land trap canines. And dyeing traps doesnt achieve anything trapping canines.

So here is my take. I high pressure clean, then boil for 15 minutes, then dry them and wax. All traps get this treatment, no matter what they did/caught/didnt catch. (new traps get an extra wash first).

I have no trouble with removing wax by boiling, and I certainly dont have a problem removing old dip or dye.

Now here is an interesting fact. In Australia, professional canine trappers (called 'doggers') have never used dips, dies or wax for 150 years! And they catch what they target. Come to think of it, I caught 400 foxes before I even waxed a trap! Perhaps all this treatment of traps is over-rated on land.
Mike

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#18201 - 06/01/07 06:10 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Newt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 508
Loc: Port Republic,South Jersey & C...
In a dry climet you can get away with out treating your traps. (I guess)
But around here. They would rust up,and just go away.

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#18202 - 06/01/07 08:55 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9936
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Mike: I was being factious about removing all the old dip. I don't know of anybody who does that seasonally. I treat dipped traps the same as you, boil them clean and redip them.

However, this mystery with "wax nodules" begs to be solved. Wax melts somewhere below 100 C, which is the boiling point of water. If your traps are submerged in boiling water, any wax that is on them must liquefy. It cannot remain in solid form. Under ordinary conditions, this liquid wax then floats to the top of the boiling kettle (wax is less dense than water). This could be the source of your problem.

If you lift traps up through this layer of liquid wax that floats on the surface of the kettle, it is possible to re deposit the wax back onto the trap. In fact, this is the old fashioned method for waxing traps -- you melt a cake of wax on top of some boiling water, submerge the traps into the water, let them warm for a minute, then pull them back up through that layer of wax. (But this doesn't do a very good job of waxing them.)

Could this possibly be the source of the wax "nodules" on your traps? Are you pulling the trap up through the layer of wax that you just boiled off of them?

To avoid this problem, some folks add water to the kettle when they are done until it overflows, this way, the old wax is carried away with the overflowing water.

I use a different method because I don't like to kill the boil on my cleaning kettle. I have two kettles of boiling water one is for rinsing the traps. For starters, I clean traps in the order they are most likely to be dirty, bodygrips first, water traps next, and finally, the waxed land traps. When I am removing traps from the cleaning kettle, I maintain the kettle at a rolling boil and pull the traps out quickly. This leaves very little old wax sticking to them. I immediately dunk them in the rinse kettle. Sometimes the rinse kettle will get a thin layer of wax on it and I have to overflow it to get rid of the wax, but most of the time, I don't have to do that as the rinse kettle stays fairly clean.

Back to the point. If you have wax stuck to the outside of your traps, after you have boiled them, there is something wrong. Could the above explanation be applicable?

quest -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18203 - 06/02/07 01:27 AM Re: Dye or Dip
Grampa Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 50
Loc: Vermont
Hal, as someone who has used the more traditional metheod for years, I like the twist on your metheod. I'm going to try that multi bucket boil. Thanks

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#18204 - 06/03/07 04:09 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Mike McChurin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 497
Loc: NE Oklahoma
Hal,

I suspected pulling traps out of the boiling water deposited wax back on them. So I finally started letting the fire die and letting the water set overnight. Next day, I could pull the layer of wax off the top of the water and remove the traps. That helped a lot. But I still had small "dots" of wax here and there. And believe me, my water was boiling!

I am not going to give up on dyeing/waxing completely. I may try it again this season.

Mike

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#18205 - 06/07/07 05:48 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Maine
A question about this topic.
Some, like Hal say they have used dip on canine traps but prefer wax, in part so they can treat in season. Mike Marchew. uses dip with great success on canine traps., others don't like it.

For those that have used it and used it like Hal,
Would you continue the use of dip if treating traps (say you had plenty of traps for replacing traps as needed or for moving into new areas) in season was not an issue or is your catch ratio just that much better with wax over dip? Or is the dip as effective as a waxed trap but you just cannot treat in season, so you prefer wax?

Thanks
Mac

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#18206 - 06/07/07 07:22 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9936
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Re-treating traps in mid season is one reason to wax but frankly that's not a big issue with me as I have accumulated a pile of traps over the years, and rarely run out. It can, however be a factor if you have only a small number of traps.

I like the idea of being able to readily strip the trap down to bare metal -- any time. One thing to consider is build up. This is not a huge problem but coat after, after coat, after coat of dip, and it starts to build up on the trap. Every time I boil off a waxed trap I am back to square one. There is no build up with wax.

Now I've mentioned this before, but you can wax over dip. If you want to retreat a dipped trap in the middle of the season, boil it off and wax it. At the end of the season, boil it again and you're back down to the dip layer. Then you can redip the trap, if you like. (Be advised that dipped traps will stain your wax, but I don't consider that to be a problem.)

Here's on final thing I should mention. I do not trust any method for cleaning land traps other that boiling. I do not believe you can get traps thoroughly clean and odor free simply by washing then at a car wash or whatever. There are too many cracks pours and crevices. Im always going to boil traps to clean them. If I'm bound to boil the traps, and boiling can and will strip away all the old coating then wax fits the bill nicely.

But I must reiterate -- I don't see anything inherently wrong with dipping land traps. I don't do it, but there are a lot of successful trappers that do, Put it this way, I don't think anyone having a lack of success in catching canines can blame it on dipped traps.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18207 - 06/07/07 07:45 PM Re: Dye or Dip
Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Maine
Thank you

Mac

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#18208 - 06/10/07 08:06 AM Re: Dye or Dip
animalpest Offline
Member+

Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 197
Loc: Western Australia
I am with you Hal. You really have to make sure your traps are absolutely clean before they go near that wax!

I used to dye and wax, but now just wax. I do it for the simplicity of it (in another thread on another topic we had some 'heated' comments on rite and ritual!).

There has been no difference in my capture rate comparing dye and wax versus wax only. So my dye sits in my depot....
Mike

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#25390 - 10/17/17 12:30 PM Re: Dye or Dip [Re: Trappergreen1990]
Archive Offline


Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 1116
Dated for search.

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