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#18672 - 09/11/05 07:15 AM Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Maine
I have used the traditional method of dye and wax for over 30 years. Recently used fuel based cold dip. It worked fine but did not hold up well.
I am looking for opinions on using Formula One for canine traps. Experinces, likes, dislikes, comments, and reasons for liking or not.
Thanks

mac

(Edit: I've edited the title of this topic to reflect the direction it has taken. -- Hal)

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#18673 - 09/11/05 09:03 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
I have used about every known method of trap protection. I allways went back to wax on my canine traps.

Formula 1 works well as a coating.But If you have any rust on your traps before you use It your traps will continue to rust under the coating.Does this happen with other coatings? I don't know since you can't see what's happening under the other coatings,but you can see It under F1. Does It matter I don't know.
All coatings wear off In a very short time.Repeated catches and your coating Is gone. So this Is how I rate the coatings that are on the market.


F1=
a little to costly for my use.
Easy to apply, dries quickly, holds up as well as any coating. Drying time related to tempature not critical.
I feel It can probably be used safely for any application.Land traps or water traps.

Gas dips=
To costly,poor drying time.Can't re dip during the season, drying time related to tempature very critical.
Holds up as well as any coating.
I would never use It for canine sets,but It would probably be safe for any other application.

Wax=
Fairly cheap.Easy to apply,dries fast.Drying time Is not critical to tempature, so you can re wax during the season.
Holds up as well as any coating.

Dye=
It's cheap and Is easy to apply.
In my opinion has no value as a protective coating. Dyed traps will rust just hanging on the walls. Dye has a very strong odor.Do I want to add that to my wax bucket?
In most cases dye Is the inatial coating and then wax Is placed over It.It makes your traps look good but has no value as a protective coating on It's own.

Paint=
We have two types of paint ones that you cut or thin with water and those we thin or cut with mineral spirts. I guess we can call these types lead based type paints.

Lead based type paint.

Needs to be cut with mineral spirts or something of that nature. Mid range In cost.Easy to apply, and drying time Is not critical to tempature.
Can be cut and your traps can be dipped or you can buy spray type cans, the spray system can get a bit costly If you have many traps and you have so much wast with over spray,and It can be very time consuming. With any type paint you will have to stir and mix If you use the dipping method since paint and your thinner like to separate.
Covers well and holds up as well as any coating.
In my opinion the jury Is still out on odor retention on traps used for canine trapping. I would assume that a period of airing out would be In order.

Latex or water based type paint=

Cheap easy to apply drying time not critical to tempature. Cut or thin with water.
It holds up as well as any coating.
I don't belive It has the strong odor of lead based paints so I don't think It will need as much airing out time. I have used latex type paints for my canine traps and saw no refusals or dug out traps. But I'm not ready to commit all my traps to this coating system. On water traps and body grip type traps there Is no need to air out your traps. And that applies to any coating you use.

Powder coating=
Coating Is applied In a dust like substace and adhears through a negitive and positive electrical prossces. And is then baked on at tempaturs of around 400 deggres.
Very costly.
I have about 8 doz 160s done this way.Nothing will ever have to be done to these traps ever again. But If you do this make sure your traps are In the sprung postion before powder coating.You can get some spring strength lose if they are left In the set postion.I know.
Coil spring traps show no lose of spring strength after powder coating.
Coyotes can and will leave scrathes In the coating but It's not a big deal. I just wax over the powder coating each year on my foot hold traps.

The bottom line Is try out differnt coatings and see what works for you In your situation.

Beav

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#18674 - 09/11/05 11:03 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Maine
Now that is what I call a thorough answer! LOL
Thanks Beav. I appreciate you taking time to answer and describe all of your experinces. The young trappers today have no concept of the differences of today and a few years ago. Lots of intelligent guys that are willing to share knowledge.

Thanks

mac

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#18675 - 09/11/05 06:49 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Gary: You don't mean "lead" based type paints. You mean "oil" based type paints. There ain't been no lead paint for 25 years now.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18676 - 09/11/05 09:09 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Gary this is probally a dumb ? but why do you wax a trap that has been powder coated? possible scent or extra protection?

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#18677 - 09/11/05 09:32 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
No dumb questions

Coyotes will leave a few deep scratches through the powder coating and the wax just seals those flaws and keeps them from rusting.
I just power wash them before waxing.

Beav

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#18678 - 09/11/05 09:35 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Now I'm confused.

You're waxing #160's?

confused -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18679 - 09/12/05 07:41 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Yes Hal your confused.
And I bet you don't read sign very well either LOL.

Coil spring traps show no lose of spring strength after powder coating.
Coyotes can and will leave scrathes In the coating but It's not a big deal. I just wax over the powder coating each year on my foot hold traps.

Beav

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#18680 - 09/12/05 08:00 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Now I see. You do have traps, other than #160's that have been powder coated. But, you do wax these traps as an extra preventative measure.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18681 - 09/12/05 08:39 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Only If the powder coating has had enough damage where i feel that they will rust.
Poder coating dosen't wear off and you can't remove it but It does scratch up some.Most of the scratches are on the surface and don't get down to the metal so those don't get any other protection.
These traps (#2 Bridgers)have seen hard use for over 6 years and they still show very little wear.But as you know some coyotes will work a trap pretty hard while others will never chew on them. I'm told I can buy the powder and mix It with some chemical and fix the bad spots but haven't tried It yet.

Beav

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#18682 - 09/12/05 01:48 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Cannon Ball Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Washington NC
I am familiar with powder coatings on marine hardware such as t-tops and rod holders etc, but I have never seen the process actually being done. Who or rather what type of buisness has the equipment to powder coat ?

Gary do you have any experience with the type of coatings used for spray in bed liners for pick up trucks ?

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#18683 - 09/12/05 06:16 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
We have a co In town and that's all they do Is powder coat.I would bet you could powder just about anything.
I never dealt with any type of spray on bed liner coatings. But they seem a bit to thick and most of them have some type of abrasive material In them. But you never know, Take a trap down to one of those places and have them give It a shot.Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Beav

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#18684 - 09/13/05 09:15 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Gary powder coat is very hard. What about the pan and dog. When you had your coated did you have them ready for the line? Night latch, short notch, however you do yours and if so were they still ready for the line when you finished? I can powder coat my own stuff just trying to save some of the trial and error. The good thing about powder is they dont have to rust first for it to stick.
thanks

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#18685 - 09/13/05 03:52 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
traprjo Offline
Member

Registered: 03/06/04
Posts: 116
Loc: larksville,pa.
i am not familiar with powder coating at all what kind of business would powder coat machine shop,welding shop? where in the phone book would you look for powder coatingh thanks traprjo


they aint all locked up!

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#18686 - 09/13/05 04:09 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
JWR
I had to remove the coating In the pan notch and on the dog end.A few swips with a file and It was done.No matter what type of coating you apply to your traps you have to do those steps.

Traprjo
I looked In our yellow pages under coatings and found 3 listings for protective powder coatings.
Mostly It's used on after market stuff.

The coating dosen't lock up any part of the trap. I didn't even have to put anything between the jaws. And the tension bolt and nut could be tightened and loosened with no problem.
If you go this route do one to see how you like It because there is no way your removing It afterwards.

Beav

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#18687 - 09/13/05 04:44 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Paul Burkhardt Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 46
Loc: Maryland
I have had a lot of experience with powder coatings. They are extremely hard and will crack sometimes. A scratch in the coating to the metal will cause it to rust. The rust will migrate out from the scratch under the coating. Some trapline anti freezes will definitly enhance this. If the pretreatment of the metal is not done corectly it will also crack and lose adhesion. I ran test on steel panels in a salt spray booth for a business I worked for. There is not dout that it is one of the best coating but as stated is very expensive. If the pretreatment of the metal is not done corectly it will also crack and lose adhesion.

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#18688 - 09/13/05 05:47 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Paul what's your take on loseing spring strength on body grips.I had mine set when they did them and I lost some of the spring strength but they still will kill coon. If I had left them un set would I have been better off?
Mine must have been done right since I have never had any cracking and only a few bad scratches with only minimal rusting In those places.
I got my coils done for $1.00 apiece 160s cost me $3.00 dam good price I assume.

Beav

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#18689 - 09/13/05 09:24 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
RiverOtter Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 646
Loc: Monashee Mtns, British Columbi...
I assume the baking part of powder coating is very controlled, but could there still be enough heat to affect spring steel? When you boil a trap, it only reaches 100'C (220'F ?) and water insures even heat on the metal surface. I'm just curious as I have no metalurgy expertise.

RO smile

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#18690 - 09/13/05 09:31 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Different types have different curing temps. The powder I use cures at 350 degrees f for 20 minutes.

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#18691 - 09/14/05 07:14 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
That temperature could be high enough to effect spring temper.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18692 - 09/14/05 08:42 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
The heat had no effect on my coil springs but did effect my compressed 160 springs and these were Bridger traps so they were super strong to begin with. If you go there just do one for starters.

Beav

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#18693 - 09/14/05 07:57 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
RiverOtter Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 646
Loc: Monashee Mtns, British Columbi...
Now I'm thinking. If a guy just took his coni springs off and powder coated the frame, that would solve the loss of strength. Then you would still have to treat the springs with something. Diluted latex maybe. The idea of a one time only trap treatment is very appealing. Depending on price.

RO smile

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#18694 - 09/14/05 08:00 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Like I said I had It done with the springs compressed. The springs may not be effected if they were left un set.

Beav

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#18695 - 09/14/05 09:29 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Well I had to try. I started with one pound of powder coat. $27.39 per pound Powder coated one trap. 14.71 oz. of powder coat after. Now if my figuring is right it would cost $20.40 to coat 1 duke 1.5 coil frown I can not tell any difference in the springs, if theres any at all I cant tell it.

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#18696 - 09/15/05 08:21 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
I had a freind in Pennsylvania looking at this a few years ago. He came up with a ballpark figure of $18.00 per dozen on smaller foothold traps. So, I think your figures are indeed accurate.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18697 - 09/15/05 08:39 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
NOW I'm confused.
One of you is saying that it will take $20.40 to do One 1 1/2 coil and the other Is saying It would take $18.00 to do a doz small traps and your saying It's about the same price?

JWR Posts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I had to try. I started with one pound of powder coat. $27.39 per pound Powder coated one trap. 14.71 oz. of powder coat after. Now if my figuring is right it would cost $20.40 to coat 1 duke 1.5 coil I can not tell any difference in the springs, if theres any at all I cant tell it.


You must mean 1 doz traps and about 1oz of powder per trap Right.

Beav

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#18698 - 09/15/05 09:03 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
LOL yep its for a doz. Sometimes my fingers dont do what my mind says.

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#18699 - 09/15/05 09:57 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Ric Online   content


Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3663
Loc: Wellington,OH=USA
$27.39 / 16=$1.71
$1.71 X (16-14.71)=$1.71 X 1.29=$2.21
$2.21 X 12=$26.52

Add labor and applicable sales tax and I think we have ruled out powder coating as a viable method to treat traps

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#18700 - 09/15/05 03:52 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Lets say It cost $3.00 to do one 160 or 220 body grip. And that trap[ lasted you 10 years. look at the time and money you would save over that time if you never had to treat those traps over that period of time.
The one draw back Is that you would have to do this with new traps since rust Is a no no when powder coating,at least that what I have been told.
I'm glad I did mine that way years ago whis I would have done them all.

Beav

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#18701 - 09/15/05 05:13 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Maine
So, I take there is no one on this board who uses Formula One for canines.

Thanks for all of the responces. Interesting thread.

Mac

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#18702 - 09/15/05 05:38 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Well yeah thats what I use. I like it. Never could tell any difference in catch ratio between f1 and dye and wax. After a couple catches traps need to be redipped but I can dip today and set tomorrow. Its probally the fastest and easiest "treatment" of all. Sure beats heating water to dye or letting it hang for a week or more to lose the smell of gas.

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#18703 - 09/15/05 05:45 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Gary, you've got a point. If that trap would last for ten years without needing to be treated again, then $2 or $3 for this permanent coating would not be unreasonable. That boils down to 20 or 30 cents a year. It's still more expensive than wax/dip, but the you save eliminating that step every year ought to be worth 20 or 30 cents.

Ed (Paws-i-Trip) Medvetz was talking about this for foothold traps and he's the one quoted at $18.00 per dozen. Except… I don't think I'd invest that in foothold traps. They just take too much abuse. Gary says he waxes over them, so that's not a time savings. I could, however, see this as a bodygrip treatment.

As Gary mentioned problems with having them done with the springs compressed, and noticing loss of strength, has anybody done this to a bodygrip with the springs in the "unset" position?

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18704 - 09/15/05 05:48 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
JWR: If you have some experience in this powder coating -- help us out. What would you have to go through to do this? How would you have to clean the traps? How about rust? Would the traps have to be brand new?

confused -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18705 - 09/15/05 05:56 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
My body grip traps show no wear after all these years, not even where the spring eyes ride up and down on the jaws.

Beav

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#18706 - 09/15/05 08:57 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Hal they would almost have to be new. I have tried a couple car frames that were sandblasted down to the metal and it does a good job but if you miss one little spot the powder will flake off when cured. If rust forms under the powder after cured it can and will flake off. Im going to try some coils tomorrow without the springs. I change springs everyyear anyway.

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#18707 - 09/16/05 10:38 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
I powder coated a trap on the 14th. Set it on the 15th. Caught a redfox today. No damage to the powdercoat that I could see held up nice.

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#18708 - 09/17/05 10:37 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
mountainman33 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 412
Loc: Central Maine
Kinda off the topic, but JWR I have to ask ya if your season is open yet and if it is, what is the fur condition of that fox? I can't imagine red fox have primed up much yet. confused
Back to the topic.....glad the powder coating held up for you. I'm liking the sounds of this stuff the more I hear about it.

...MM... smile

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#18709 - 09/17/05 07:44 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Our coyote season is in. Live market is all that their any good for here. I let the fox go, I beleive she had some pups somewhere. Looked like they had been sucking.

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#18710 - 09/20/05 04:53 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
I have learned a little more this week. If powder coating coil springs, remove the spring from the lever. I had a couple that the powder did not get between the spring and the lever. Oh yeah ----1 pound will coat 14, 1.65 bridger modified. Going to use these for dryland otter so they should get a real test as to how well the powder will hold up.

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#18711 - 09/21/05 10:38 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
In his experiments, Medvetz determined the absolute best way to do this was to completely dismantle the trap.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#18712 - 09/22/05 12:57 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Freddybaer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 81
Loc: Marion Ohio
I have been following this thread for a while. I have specified powder coating processes in my job. What type of powder material are guys using to powder coat traps? Ask the supplier of the material or get an MSDS sheet on the material
All standard powder coats are a form of plastic powder mixtures. This can be thermoset or thermoplastic. The type of material you use will determine its, durability, scratch resistance,chemical resistance,adhesion,weatherability,and water absorption(scent absorption).For instance Nylon (a thermoplastic) has good durability ,scratch resistance but it absorbs water and scents easily. This is one of the most common powder coats normal baking time is 15 to 25 minutes at 200 to 250 F.Probably the best aplication of powder coat for chemical,water absorbsion,and weatherability would be epoxy(a thermoset). The big drawback is curing tempertures are from 350 to 500 F. And the answer to the next question is yes it will effect the temper in the type of spring steel used in trap springs depending on the time it takes the specific epoxy powder mixture to cure. I think it is a very interesting idea but its needs some more thought.

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#18713 - 09/22/05 02:41 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Now were getting somewhere. All i know about powder coating is what i have learned using it. I didnt realize there were different types. Here's a chart on what I use.


Pretreatment Iron phosphate, zinc phosphate Advantages Excellent chemical resistance
Application Conditions Electrostatic powder spray, fluidized bed Gives low gloss, matte finishes
Film Thickness 1.2 - 100+ mils Smooth coatings
Specific Gravity 1.2 - 1.8 Good corrosion resistance
Coverage 107.0-160.0 sq.ft./lb. per mil of coating Good mechanical properties
Baking Schedules 5 minutes at 399? F F-5H pencil hardness
(Standard Cure / 10 minutes at 375? F Excellent adhesion to substrate
Metal Temperature) 15 minutes at 320? F Excellent electrical properties
Very good abrasion resistance

Hope this helps

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#18714 - 09/22/05 07:03 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
johnson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 17
Loc: rhode island
Coyotes will leave a few deep scratches through the powder coating and the wax just seals those flaws and keeps them from rusting.

you wax for that reason only?
does wax act as a lubricant when the trap fires?
and sent control as well?

if the yotes did not scratch the finish
would you not use any wax at all

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#18715 - 09/23/05 12:21 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Freddybaer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 81
Loc: Marion Ohio
Jwr, It appears you are working with a epoxy or a polyester Material, it might even be a hybrid or combination of the two. These are good materials for durability,and rust prevension.The drawback to these materials is that they are not very flexible and will have a tendacy to chip or crack if surface preparation is suspect. I cannot tell from the info you provided what kind of filler or extenders they might be using and what percentages they are using . Common fillers for this material are wood flour,cellulose,flock and sometimes walnut flour. The effect of these additives will depend on the amount and fiber size.
Ok now that we have gone through all that what does it mean about the material choice. I think it will be a matter of experience and opinion. It appears you have had some success with this. I would continue to evaluate and do some more investigation into actual material content of the powdercoat. In theory some of the aditives noted may pick up smells more than others. The heating of the spring steel to this temperture is a problem. Depending on the spring design and material it could reduce the life of the spring a little. Hope this helps a little

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#18716 - 10/03/05 07:38 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
I need to get a dig. cam. I have caught 2 fox, 1 yote,and a otter in a 1.65. The powder on the chain is gone (galvanized chain) but just a few minor scratches on the trap. Could the galvanize keep the powder from sticking to the chain?

Does anyone know a way good way to release a otter eek

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#18717 - 10/03/05 12:13 PM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating?
Freddybaer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 81
Loc: Marion Ohio
It probably would be better if the chain was a clean steel surface. However I think you will have problems with the chain whether it was galvanized or not. The best thing to do is give it a try and see what happens. Can’t help you with the otter question I live in Ohio and the first season is this year. Good Luck

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#21147 - 12/12/14 10:33 AM Re: Trap treatment -- Powder Coating? [Re: Mac]
Archive Offline


Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 1116
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