i dont mean to imply u or hal, or buzzard would do such things. that is not what i was trying to do.and i am not trying to interject my own sense of rite or wrong. you are rite, education is key. the point i thought i was making is the fact that like it or not you ,me , hal ,all of us are judged on the actions of every other outdoorsman . rather we like it or not. i would bet u have been denied permision to hunt or trap by a landowner whos reason was ,he use to let folks until he had some guy..... no i dont do much summer work unless it is nessisary,,my choice. do i look down on someone who dose? no! the point is that you and i can agree to disagree about the P.r. aspect i donthave as much faith in the general public. THEY lump us all together, like it or not! i wish you wererite and we could all be judged by our own actions ,,but "we" arent. some day ric i will buy you a cup of coffee , and we can chat some more. i will be at lima. what would this world be if we all agreed!? i havent typed this much in years. but i do enjoy a good discussion/ debate. mabey we got someone to think a little. ya'all have a good holiday weekend ,,be safe , doug