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#2821 - 08/11/05 03:55 PM Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
here is a couple pics of a grey and a coyote cought in the same trap a day or so apart, the trap is a stock bridger 1.65 w offset jaws, 4 swivels and a JC Conner shock spring. The grey was dang near perfect paw wise and had a very nice catch circle so she had been in there for some time. The coyote had damage as you can see .........THOUGHTS ??




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#2822 - 08/11/05 05:17 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Ric Offline


Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Wellington,OH=USA
I run quite a few 1.65's and like them.The factory springs seem to work fine with regular jaws but on the off-sets I have had some similar problems.I bumped the off-sets up to a larger spring size and that helped alot.Still get some paw movement in the off-sets which is what I attribute the problem too but not like before.I recon that reds or greys don't have the horse power to move thier paw and the coyotes do.Also needed to pay attention to the jaws on those off-sets more so than the standard jaws

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#2823 - 08/12/05 09:46 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Freddybaer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 81
Loc: Marion Ohio
You have a pretty good trap and setup. I am not sold on the offset concept, but I am sure that debate has been waged on this site already. The best luck I have had limiting damage is in lamination rather than offset. The increased surface area spreads out the load from the trap springs. I do not recomend the use of laminations without double coiling or jumping your spring size. Anytime you add weight to a trap by laminating of baseplating you slow the trap down and the ideal paw catch can becomes a toe catch. I think the movement of the animals foot within the jaws as Ric mentioned is a key and you will limit this also by powering up a little. My best suggestion if it is legal in your state is to move up to a Double CS #3. If you are trying to avoid adding the # 3 to your trap arsenal I would have to again suggest laminating and boosting your spring power. Just for reference how long is your chain ?

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#2824 - 08/12/05 02:25 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
Fred,

I got bunches of 3's but I hate the damage they do to my tiny greys. While I am not a live market trapper by any means ( I hate the live market ), I dont like to inflict undo pain either. Im gonna start the season this year w/ a batch of stock reg jaws and just bubble the ends and belt sand a radious on the jaws both on the top and the bottom..... see what happens.


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#2825 - 08/12/05 04:54 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
KYBOY Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Wolf creek, KY
im thinking of trying almost the same setup for greys, only im thinking of laminating the jaws ans adding #2 music wire springs. not sure yet

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#2826 - 08/12/05 04:55 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
WACKYQUACKER Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 683
Loc: CORRALES, NM
Lamination certainly helps a bunch. Now all our traps must be offsetand I can't speak to that issue. Ever since I laminated my traps I have dang near eliminated foot damge like you have shown. I also have 4 coiled. I like a fast trap.

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#2827 - 08/12/05 05:32 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
skidway Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 27
Loc: Traverse City, Mi
I use tricked out offset #3's and have never had much in the line of foot damage on a 24 hr. check; reds or coyote. I have my own opinion about jaw type but think you're on the right track making sure there are NO sharp edges on the jaws.Some of the Bridgers I used to have needed to be touched up a little and some were OK. I'd check them all. Try a few offsets and see what what happens and I think you'll be surprised.

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#2828 - 08/14/05 12:06 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
BillWI Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 339
Loc: Bonduel,WI,US
Most of my canine traps are Bridger #2 OS and like stated before I also had some foot damage on both reds and yotes. No real greys up here so I can't comment on them. So I laminated with 3/16 round stock and four coiled with taos lightning kits and my foot damage now is nearly zero. When I touch up my jaws all I do is run a file over them to clean up any burrs.
Bill

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#2829 - 08/14/05 07:47 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
The use of laminations and extra swivels and shock springs will Indeed cut down on foot damage. Strong springs that lock up the trap will reduce foot movement. I'm not sold on 4 coiling but strong springs are very Important. I also belive Inside lamination will reduce foot damage more so then outside lamination.Both would be better.

Then there Is the animal itself. Some critters will fight a trap with more tenacity then the next one. Sometimes this Is do to a stormy night,or maybe the animal Is being harassed buy something while caught.There Is nothing we as trappers can do to remedy this situation.

I find very little damage on the feet of coyotes and red fox,bobcats seem to never show any foot damage. But the small fragile footed grey fox can really mess up a foot. But then again you can catch 10 In a row with no damage and the next one will be messed up. In my opinion It's just the nature of the beast when it comes to grey fox.

Beav

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#2830 - 08/14/05 02:37 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Noel A Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Southern Maine
I agree with The Beav.

Noel

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#2831 - 08/14/05 03:25 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Got to go with Beav says also....I have found on bigger traps #2 coils on up utilizing in/out lam.s with stronger springs is excellent for reducing paw damage...or as you already know go custom Heimbrock, Coyote Cuffs, Mb650, MJ600, Jake...

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#2832 - 08/14/05 04:13 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
go custom Heimbrock, Coyote Cuffs, Mb650, MJ600, Jake...
Nope , dont buy it.........all those trapes will break legs on greys w/ 10 swivels.

My predominate catch is GREY FOX.......a heimbock trap is gentle compared to a mb 650 and those are plain mean on a grey .

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#2833 - 08/16/05 12:34 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Buzz been contemplating your scenario...lots of grays with other valuable furbearers in the area...tricked out #1 1/2 MIGHT be the answer. we know that weight is a factor for those ROLLING/SPINNING gray fox and their light fragile bone make up creates problems. Might check out the new Montana #1 1/2 coil.

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#2834 - 08/16/05 05:42 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9910
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
You’ve got the right trap, Keith. That #1.65 Bridger is a 5” trap, and treats gray fox fairly well. I wouldn’t go to #1.5 if you’re going to do coyotes too. Are you saying you’re getting paw damage on coyotes consistently with that trap?

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#2835 - 08/16/05 07:37 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Mountain Cur Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 41
Loc: Louisiana
Excellent discussion here that reinforces an earlier one that we had on here a while back, since hearing from you guys, I'm going to laminate all my traps inside and out and even try some of my plain jaws set up like this for live market, Sounds like with lamintations, Some of my plain jaw 1 1/2's should work for live market fox.

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#2836 - 08/16/05 10:27 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
tom dud Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 43
on my k-9 line the bigest trap i use is a 1.75.
although there are not very many greys i do cetch a few every year. reds and yotes are the norm. i dont four coil i do however laminate baseplate and use shokesprings on all my traps and i very rarely get foot damage. its always a posibility. also i have caught several yotes and held them with no foot damage with 1.5 coon traps. i dont recomend it however i think with four coils it would be a good trap!

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#2837 - 08/17/05 06:27 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Keith I don't buy it! You say all of the traps I listed will break legs on gray fox even with 10 swivels...nope. Maybe on certain especially fiesty, rollers but I've caught alot of grays in big traps with non offset jaws have you..that were fine. Now I'm not saying a big non-offset trap is my first choice on grays...a #1 1/2 offset with perfectly rounded jaws, centered chain and multiple swivels in a grass free, soft, bone dry ground with pillows on each side of the set would be...to prevent damage...lol
Let me throw this out for discussion...what has your been your experience in chain lengths for grays and damage? Personally, chain length might be the cause for alot of possible damage in these light boned critters.
FOR STRICTLY grays...a shorter well swiveled chain might reduce the potential to build up speed on these aggressive rollers.
But I think you are refering to paw damage due to trap jaw contacting paws. An strong offset jaw, with a wide surface area will not necessarily damage a paw. I believe the weight of the trap plus the length of the chain and swiveling will possibly have more effects on the little grays paw...my opinion.

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#2838 - 08/17/05 07:41 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Ric Offline


Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Wellington,OH=USA
The majority of greys I have caught were before coyotes had become common in the areas I was trapping .My standard trap was a plain jane 11/2 coil with some extra swivels.Once Coyotes became more common and I increased trap size grey problems happened much more often.I attributed this to trap weight more than size because of the location and type of injuries.
When useing a compramise sized trap (read small) for Coyote,Reds and greys I saw an advantage to off-set jaws because of the size of a coyotes foot.It is a simple function of geometry.The seeming advantage is not so apparent in the field.Also poorly designed off-set jaws do nothing but help sell traps and cause problems.
I will take issue with one thing Mike said about his ideal trap.One of the worst traps for cutting that I ever used for fox had a rounded jaw face.My perfered jaw configureation for all species it a flat face with radiused corners.The width of the jaw face balanced with the spring strength of the particular trap

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#2839 - 08/17/05 08:52 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
I believe the weight of the trap plus the length of the chain and swiveling will possibly have more effects on the little grays paw...my opinion.
I see it differently Mike, those trap listed usually do NOT hit a grey at the paw but higher up where there is no joint to help w/ movement. A high cought grey breaks easily. I did at one time think of some nice tricked out 1.5's and even laminating some 1.65's on the inside ......that looks like a nightmare to me for thrown coyote feet.

Quote:
Are you saying you’re getting paw damage on coyotes consistently with that trap?

Yes Hal, I am but I attribute it to the offsets, cant see it any other way . As for movement, there cant be much cause there aint no room left hardly in that little trap. I like the trap size very much and will give it anothergo this year but without the offsets

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#2840 - 08/17/05 09:46 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Ric, that is interesting. Was the damage in traps with chain hook ups centered off base? I remember using some "well used" Victors one year when we had reds and grays. These traps were stock...side chain hook up, end swiveled...the problem I saw was paw sliding due to both side anchored chain and weak springs. When I started using the stronger springed #1 1/2 Monty rj ...even with side anchored I had very little paw damage on grayfox. I did use just stock chain with end swivel. Caught alot of grays and reds in S.Ind over the years with those traps and saw basically same results. I always felt that if Monty traps had been designed with the Northwoods/Bridger trap centered base hookup it would have been EVEN better.

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#2841 - 08/17/05 11:08 AM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
jwr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 199
Loc: ark
Buzz is it possible that yote came in from the side making the jaws catch the side of the paw. That could keep the spring levers from rising enough to LOCK the jaws down. Then with just a little fighting the trap it could twist around for a good pad catch, but in twisting cause the damage. I seen a yote step in a trap several years ago while I was on a deer stand. When looking through the scope I could see he was caught on the sides of the paw but when I got to him (3 minutes max) the paw had slipped around and broke the hide in the process. just a thought

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#2842 - 08/17/05 05:25 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
MUDDSTUD Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 22
Loc: S.E. ALABAMA
Buzz your getting close to the same results that I got with the same set-up. Like anything else there are alot of variables to pay attention to. The first thing i would do is try to lighten up on the trap size 1.75 should be the max. O.S. is good but they need to be 4 coiled with the Taos springs. From there you can put gas line or someother rubber covering over the inside of each jaw. Sort of a home made softcatch but way more durable. As soon as my dauter has the time I'll have her make some digital pic's of a set- up that we've been working on and w/ for several years. But as with anything it's not 100% - close though

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#2843 - 08/17/05 09:43 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Was house bound today with kids...watched JCs videos..again...great stuff! I watched him release several reds and a few grays from the Jake trap....grabbed them by the scruff of their neck and rubbed the caught paw...and let them run. All critters were caught on dragged traps...makes one wonder about dragged trap benefits.

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#2844 - 03/02/06 03:42 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
Back up simply because its a good read

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#25343 - 10/17/17 12:15 PM Re: Paw damage on Grey fox........ Need imput [Re: Buzzard..]
Archive Offline


Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 1116
Dated for search

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