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#4373 - 01/28/07 09:15 PM Re: brush wolves
Trapper Ed Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11
Loc: pocono mountains of pennsylvan...
i caught two coyotes so far & they were both big, looked like they had wolf in them by the facial features, bout 50 lbs each. one was on the dark er side & the other like a normal looking yote

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#4374 - 01/28/07 10:05 PM Re: brush wolves
musher Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 2376
Loc: Qc.
Dusty; The Timbers I have here are canis lupus lycaeon. Further north you have the c.l. labradorius that feed on caribou. They are bigger because - most things north are bigger.

They are both timber wolves. The northern ones have les "tawny" in them.

There's a biologist in Algonquin park in Ontario that did alot of research on the red wolf. It's a husband and wife team and they didn't seem trapper friendly.

The news is saying that a 107 pound coyote was harvested in the Beauce region. A DNA test is being done.

Stef Forget's jumbo coyote of last year, that is being studied by Quebec's chief wolf expert Helene Jolicoeur, might have a red wolf connection.

Aren't red wolves still found in Mexico?

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#4375 - 01/29/07 02:31 AM Re: brush wolves
Dusty Offline
Member+

Registered: 12/15/00
Posts: 420
Loc: North Pole, Alaska, USA
Musher - I wouldn't argue (too much) with your taxonomy; Wilson would. He believes [i]lycaeon[i] to be a distinct species.

The problem with wolf subspecies is wolves. They are NOT good at staying in one place. Collared wolves regularly trot several hundred miles over a few months. Remove human "islands" from the picture, it it was just a couple dozen wolf generations ago, and it's not too hard to imagine AK wolf genes in Ontario wolves. I believe most subspecific splits, not to mention species splits, in wolves are unjustified. Canids tend to be VERY plastic critters - a chihuahua and a "pure" AK wolf are similar enough to merit inclusion in one species. I can't think of any other species capable of that amount of variation!

Not to totally discount morphology, but if you were given a poodle skull, a coyote skull, and a wolf skull, with no prior knowledge of their taxonomy, and told to put them into two species, you would almost certainly get it wrong. Big coyotes are not wolves. Coyotes that "look like wolves" generally look like wolves because they are big.

64" tip-to-tip is a little over half what a big wolf will stretch, at 14" wide.

You're probably referring to the Theberge's. To say they aren't friendly to trapping is a bit of an understatement - they're downright outraged that "their" collared wolves get killed outside the park.

Red wolves are an Eastern US thing, as far as I know.

That's one big coyote! Keep us posted.

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#4376 - 01/29/07 04:43 PM Re: brush wolves
WACKYQUACKER Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 683
Loc: CORRALES, NM
Nicely done! Thankyou Dusty.

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#4377 - 01/29/07 05:52 PM Re: brush wolves
skipper Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 676
Loc: .Manheim Pennslvania
If you read Russ Carmans book TRAPPING THE BRUSHWOLF I think he has a very insteresting take on the coloration and distrubution the whole thing kind of goes along with Dustys take on things.

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#4378 - 01/29/07 09:57 PM Re: brush wolves
bblwi Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 288
Loc: Kiel, WI
Excellent information on this thread. I live in WI we have coyotes and wolves.
Many times I have read posts and articles where there is a lot of discussion referring to wolves, subspecies of and the many breeds or varieties of wolves if you will, Red, Brush, Lobo, Timber to name a few.

Why is there not similar findings or discussions when discussing coyotes? The discussion on coyotes usually is limited to Eastern and Western and with typically only size as the biggest part of that discussion.\
Is it that there have been more studies and time spent on wolves or they are more "respected" than are coyotes and thus there has been less information and research done on coyotes?

I would feel that there are opportunities for as many if not more sup groups of coyotes in NA and that does not include the wolf infuence either.

Bryce

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#4379 - 01/29/07 10:27 PM Re: brush wolves
Dusty Offline
Member+

Registered: 12/15/00
Posts: 420
Loc: North Pole, Alaska, USA
Bryce - you nailed it. Wolves are "charismatic megafauna" and grad students REALLY like to work on them. An unfortunate reality of modern science is that lots of grad students - and professors - see a very limited slice - perhaps genetic data from a few positions in the genome, or skull measurements - of the biology and ecology that is a species. There has been a rash of "freezer biologists" publishing studies that any ecologist - or educated trapper - would instantly recognize as, at best, incomplete and narrow. Another factor is funding - "endangered" and "biodiversity" and "human encroachment" and "habitat loss" are big buzzwords to NSF, the organization that funds a lot of research, and all can be applied to wolves.

There are something on the order of 15 coyote subspecies recognized. At least some of them are based on things like pelage color, and will almost certainly be collapsed upon further review. Some are probably valid, or could be further split, depending on your definition of a subspecies.

Like I said earlier, if these things were mice there would probably be one species that contains most of the current genus Canis, including wolves, coyotes, dogs, and most jackals.

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#27035 - 01/07/20 05:04 PM Re: brush wolves [Re: chuckieo]
Archive Offline


Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 1486
Dated for search.

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