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#8423 - 03/28/06 08:28 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Please do not take this thread off track.

frown -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8424 - 03/28/06 11:22 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
skipper Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 676
Loc: .Manheim Pennslvania
I didn't know what the proper pipe diameter was for testing .But I did do 6 pull tests on the amberg style crimp on and I had results that were very consistant. But up to fourty pounds below what they were supose to give at.One went at 170# I also used a static pull tester . The inside of the ferrels were severly abrased 360degrees so I know that the crimp was good and the tips of the tool were togeather every time.

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#8425 - 03/28/06 01:06 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Well, what size pipe did you use? Measure the diameter of it.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8426 - 03/28/06 04:35 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Scrapper: To get the 90° bend, fasten one half of the s-hook in a vice. Then hold the part that sticks above the jaws tightly with a pair of pliers (vice grips will work even better) and twist it to 90°. I'm sure you have the old style, and they can be a little harder to do. In fact, I never advertised that you could twist them. The new style are a little bit different and a little easier to twist into a j-hook configuration.

"…when you close them, they are tight on the washer"

On some washer style locks, the hole is drilled too far from the edge. You can barely get the hook closed and when you do, the BAD is bound against the edge of the lock. I don't have an cure for that, and I can't tell you exactly how it effects performance.


smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8427 - 03/28/06 04:56 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Newt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 508
Loc: Port Republic,South Jersey & C...
Ya'll know how I feel about'm.

Was it last year ? we went around and around about how to test a BAD.

When a coyotes neck is as hard as a steel pipe. And he just powers into the snare,with steady preasure.
AND NOT
Hitting the end of a 12 foot snare with all the speed he can get.
But the deer all have to weight the same too. Than just walk NOT run.
THAT'S when you can test a BAD and tell how it's gona work.

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#8428 - 03/28/06 08:42 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Newt: Yes, I know how you feel about BADs, and since we go back a long way, I’m gonna be as nice as I can here. (Also, if you don’t quit ranting and raving, you’re gonna get on the “loony list” with a certain other snare manufacturer I know. smile )

I know you don’t like BADs. I don’t know exactly why, other than it makes snares somewhat more difficult to manufacture. I’ll agree with that, but it is not illegal or immoral to charge an increased price for these snares. We do, however, owe it to our customers to assure them of what they are getting and what performance they can expect. Don’t you agree.

BADs are effective tools for releasing large animals in snares. That is their genesis. I have people buy BADs from me, and use them in areas where they are not mandated by law. But more and more states are making them mandatory. To rail against them will not stop more places from adopting them and will not make those states that have adopted them rescind their decision. And to add confusion, simply for the sake of confusion does nothing to help resolve the real questions that should be answered about these devices.

Why do you want a “steady pull” out of the coyotes? The kinetic energy generated by a moving (accelerating) coyote will always be greater than the energy created by a coyote standing in one place, just pulling on the snare. You probably will remember this from your physics class if you think about it.

Why on god’s earth would you want to waste time testing a procedure that produces less than maximum energy? It is more important to determine the maximum energy the coyote might exert against the BAD. If you have a good reason for demanding this less than maximum test, I will be glad to hear it.

Now, you said “coyotes neck as hard as steel”. I’m going to have to assume here that you have never examined the documents I’ve quoted here. I believe it would benefit you to do so. Several animals were tested, coyotes, cattle, sheep, and deer. These were actual real live animals, with actual blood, bone and tissue. The lunge forces were for coyotes (real live flesh and blood coyotes) were measured with two different lengths of tethers 11 feet and 4.5 feet. That’s how the determined that a neck-snared (real live flesh and blood neck) could exert 302 lbs of force on an 11 foot snare. They also tested real live deer and cattle to see what kind of force they could exert.

Now we know what energies an animal (flesh and blood) can exert, what we need to know next is at what strength a given BAD will break. To determine this were going to wrap the snare around a steel pipe and break it. Unless I miss my guess, you want this snare to be wrapped around a “soft” medium. Well then, can you suggest a medium, one that will give unyielding consistence, one that I, you, and anyone else can readily pick up around the shop? One that will squeeze down to a consistent diameter, each and every time it is used, in each and every situation?

As far as I can see, from the documentation the tests that have been promulgated and have been conducted are reasonable and give reasonable results. And I can reproduce them in my shop, with a few simple tools. So can you.

But so far Newt, my friend, all you’ve really done is complain. Wouldn’t it be better to do something that would be to the benefit of your customers, my customers, and all the other folks who are trying to use these BADs and wade through all the vague inaccuracies that surrounds the system for measuring them?

Just exactly what do you want? You seem to be dancing around a bunch of vague notions. Tell me exactly what kind of test you want and just exactly how you want to conduct it. The only requirement is that those of us who have an interest in this be able to reproduce your test in our shops using equipment that is readily available to us.

Newt, my friend, at the risk of jeopardizing our friendship, it really is time to $hit or get off the pot. Tell me exactly what you want.

The ball is in your court.

frown -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8429 - 03/29/06 03:47 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
scrapper Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thanks Hal. It must be the washers.
Mike

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#8430 - 03/29/06 08:14 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Newt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 508
Loc: Port Republic,South Jersey & C...
Hal, No offance taken.
I guess that I just dont know what "kinetic" engery is.
I thought it was when you have a steady pull. Like hook'n something up to a come-a-long,and crank'n it.
Guess Kinetic engery is like when you drop something.With slack in the rope, that you got it tyed to. Like hang'n somebody.
What I nead is a better grip on the english langage.I had to go to summer school just for english to graduate.Always said that I can talk better than I can write.
I'll try to stay out of these tecknal debates .And just answer about what I know.Build'n snares,catch'n and kill'n fur.I'll leave all the tecknal test'n up to you other guys.Then when you come up with something better I'll buy it, and use it.

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#8431 - 03/29/06 09:09 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
I am assuming then, that you are off the pot. smile

I most certainly defer to your expertise in using a snare.

What I need to know is, would it be acceptable to you if we rated BAD systems by using a static pull on a 3" pipe? Don't get too wound up with the actual numbers. What I'm getting at there is if I, and John Doe, and Joe Blow each had a device, and they were all rated at say 350 pounds by this method, would you rest assured that:

A.) Each of these devices would perform in a similar manner as far as holding coyotes and releasing larger animals, and

B.) A rating, by this method, of 350 pounds is going to hold very nearly all the coyotes that are taken on a snare of less than 10 feet in length.

That's is the question I pose to you.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8432 - 03/29/06 09:31 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
WACKYQUACKER Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 683
Loc: CORRALES, NM
While you folks are at it you could do some testing with these "S" BADS and dispatch springs...some of us can still snare with the new falutin thingys. If I knew of an "s" BAD that was tested on a camlock with a spring I'd buy them. Until then I'll just keep buying from the same single source that I bought from at last years convention.

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