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#8473 - 04/01/06 10:07 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
WACKYQUACKER Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 683
Loc: CORRALES, NM
When snaring it is the absolute obligation of the snaresman to hang his equipment in such a way and manner to avoid non-targets; on that we must all agree. The BADs and deer stops are not and should not be considered fail safe systems. They provide additional layers of protection against the un-avoidable co-incidental encounter they are not license to string cable in any manner or fashion. This being re-stated, neck snaring of deer is not the focus of these devices.
Precautions should / must be taken to avoid these situations like the plague.

On another point, I have this Noonam cartoon image of my dear friend cranking on a come-a-long while looking over his shoulder to listen to his sweeties words just as the BAD fails. The next scene is him on crutches. Since I have such great affection for this fellow I do not like the image. On the other wall is another little buddy with a pulley aided, lever system rigged in such a manner that when the BAD fails the lever gives but a bit, the scale returns to zero leaving a slide indicator at the precise poundage of failure. My little buddy has a large grin on his face while my other friend hops around the room in pain trying to remember what tonnage he had applied just prior to his injury.

Given the discussion to this point, it should be clear to all that the exactness of whatever test we are discussing is not at issue, reproducibility, ease of use, cost, availability and above all standardization are what is critical.

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#8474 - 04/01/06 11:19 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
"Deer stops don't release neck snared deer."

Again we face misconceptions that can leave trappers with a false sense of security.

BADs don't release neck snared deer either.

Read carefully what Tom said above: "...neck snaring of deer is not the focus of these devices. Precautions should / must be taken to avoid these situations like the plague."

frown -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8475 - 04/01/06 04:06 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
scrapper Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Pennsylvania
Quote:
This is just one more example of silliness in some of these snaring regulations that have been recently promulgated.
Just a hair off topic here, but
Hal, you think bads and stops are silly, what about deer stops on our beaver snares here in PA?
Mike

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#8476 - 04/01/06 04:25 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Same here Scrapper...Illinois has the same law. Except there is no mention of BAD. AND we must have a swivel on the END of the cable. Now I ask you who are the experts..the DNR or the experienced trappers in the field? Hal any response to my previous post...regarding deer stops.

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#8477 - 04/01/06 07:13 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
RiverOtter Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 646
Loc: Monashee Mtns, British Columbi...
Quote:
That's understood...I am asking will a deer stop change the break out poundages of a BAD? I am guessing that it will...IF a stop is positioned at different points on the cable. For instance in my state it must be positioned at 2 1/2 inches...other guys I have talked to position it differently.
Mike, I don't see how it makes a difference. If a deer is neck snared, then it is not going to pull the loop down to a 2 1/2" diameter as its neck is far larger than that. If it is leg snared, then the stop should work as intentended and allow the deer to pull its foot free even if the BAD does not open.

RO smile

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#8478 - 04/01/06 07:29 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Riverotter, I suppose it could happen that way...I agree neck snared deer with a deer stop are going to die. BUT I think a neck snared deer with a light BAD...MIGHT have a better chance to break out.
BUT that is not my question...I am asking does a snare with a deer stop on it change the break out poundage compared to one that doesn't have a stop? It sounds like 'I'm beating this horse' BUT if Illinois trappers have knowledge of this fact it might help us with future legilation....Thanks ahead of time.

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#8479 - 04/01/06 07:46 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9945
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
ĒHal, you think bads and stops are silly...Ē

Hold on. I donít necessarily think that BADs or deer stops are a bad idea. But, requiring both on the same snare is foolish, particularly if those snares are required to employ a sub 300 lb bad. In Ohio, we are required to have one or the other but not both.

Mike: If the test calls for a mandrel that is larger than the diameter mandated by the deer stop, I donít think the stop will have any influence on the BAD. In other words, a stop diameter of 2.5 inches tested on a 3 inch mandrel is going to have no effect on the failure of the BAD.

I suspect you want to know what happens with a BAD if and when a lock bottoms out on a deer stop. I canít answer that. If you're thinking about legislation, for goodness sake donít ask for a deer stop diameter larger than 2.5 inches. If you do youíll have small critters getting out of your snares.

As for a BAD that will release neck snared deer Ė Iím sorry to say that if you get a bad that light, you can forget about snaring coyotes.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8480 - 04/01/06 08:12 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Thanks Hal...you are probably right...on the BAD.

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#8481 - 04/01/06 08:29 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
WACKYQUACKER Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 683
Loc: CORRALES, NM
What I have read above, for the most part, accurately describes non-lethal situations; or so it seems. In lethal snaring particularly with dispatch springs the whole world seems to change. Coyotes are reportedly held with very light BADS on long snares when dispatch springs of the correct poundage are employed. When the coyote is dead the BAD is safe. I do not believe this is anything more than a result of incorporating a spring in -line with the end of the snare. Addition of this spring apparently changes the dynamics of the BAD and standard 280s are way more than what is required to hold a coyote. I do wish I had used some of these new, should I call them, ultra-light BADs but I have not and my post is truly hearsay...but I heard it from some very good snaresman if that has any bearing on things. Now, I could get some real good first hand information if a friend or two of mine would stick a spring on a snare or two and see if the BAD releases at the same poundage.

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#8482 - 04/01/06 10:19 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Heimbrock Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 36
Loc: Ohio
OK this is Gawd speakiní and ainít none of yíall better to try to throw a beeg sheet over my head unless you are higher than I am . . . . .

Buzzard is correct.

That is depending on the definition of the test and the universe you wish to address.

With me so far? Hal and the Wacky dude should be . . . . (Hal was a Chem mjr afterawl)

Iíll presume Hal assumes, as he has provided no proof otherwise, that the steel from which his break away devices are mfg is the same from lot to lot.

Now why shooooooould that be the case?

It certainly isnít when one is buying high dollar music wire.

If one isnít buying truckload quantities (at least 40,000 lbs), the smaller the order Ė as in the trapping industry-, over a period of time, order to order AND intra-order, the more likely one is to purchase the results of ďsweeping the floorĒ . To put it in terms trappers can identify with: Over time you get sloppy seconds, backwash, leftovers . . . it all looks the same and weighs the same but it ainít the same and hainít no astm father-hater can ever change that FACT.

Now, more to the point of my good friend Buzzard (did anybody know there was a abattoir in Ohio called Buzzards ?) Different metals, whether they differ inter or intra-manufacturer, will have different rates of failure as the result of the accumulation of sub-critical stresses.

So what Buzzard said, and what got lost in the haze (and that looked like a purple haze from Blue Creek), is ifín you want a test that gives replicable results between the various types of steel and mfgs and all the possible combinations of those two sets for a specific event is you gotta put a NEW Break Away Device (BAD) in the testing mechanism every time you test until you reach failure to determine the mean, or median, of first time exposure failures.

Now if you want to determine the mean, or median, of exposure failures greater than first time, with the exposure stresses varying randomly as they would in the field, well good luck. Cuz then you have 2 more sets to introduce to the existing two, the number of pre-failure stresses and the different stress levels, i.e. small coyote, large female coyote, large female coyote immediately post-parturition, small deer etc&etc; as can be seen all the possible combinations that would need to be tested for anything other than first time exposure failures increases at a rate greater than the spread of STDs in an impoverished third world, war torn, drought stricken, famine ridden country with 2/3rds of its population between the ages of 12 and 21.

But I digress with the preceding paragraph. Nobody in the FWS community really cares about good science they just care about using the FWS acronym. The wife-studies-project is out-of-town at a conference this weekend and Iím bored.

Donít get too close . . . .

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