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#8483 - 04/02/06 01:16 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Heimbrock Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 36
Loc: Ohio
RE:" However, these BADs are made from wire. Can you please enlighten me as to what wire manufacturer would, in the middle of a run, switch the types of steel they were using. (I believe that would be the manufacturer who would not stay in business long, and probably wouldn't be of great concern to us.) And or, can you tell me of a concern in the business of manufacturing small s-hooks who would, in the middle of a run, switch the type of wire they were using, without notifying their customers. (Again, a manufacturer that will not be in business very long.)

The prospect of having "mixed" metals in the same batch of BADs is, in my opinion, too farfetched to entertain.


I missed this little gem first scan.

First off

different mfg using different steel types is a state of nature that this commentary doesn’t recognize.

Second off

the mfg doesn’t have to change types of steel in the middle of a run, all that needs happen is the lot changes, steel still meets the same specs but lot has changed, now you have to shut down machine or line to recalibrate due to change in physicals.

Or same steel spec/grade from a different mfg - - - -oh yea babe that’s what I’m talking about, a friggin’ nightmare on the floor; all because some guy graduated from Wendy’s burger flippin’ school that got a job in purchasing is trying to prove he is smarter than a ‘possum.

Ain’t nobody ought be allowed in purchasing until they they have designed sumthin and then had make more than 2 of them in a row that worked.

But anyway.

Different mfg using different steel types is a state nature that this commentary doesn’t recognize.

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#8484 - 04/02/06 06:50 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Ric Offline


Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3653
Loc: Wellington,OH=USA
Again with the assumptions.On my part this time.I certainly don't have Jerry's expertise in working with metal but did a little research on the subject a while back.It amazed me that the acceptable tollerances for the composition and working properties of "common"(everyday?)steels were so large.With the steel products utilised in the hardware we are interested in the specifications are painted with a wide brush.

But this is one of the reasons a standardised test is important.Allowing for materials with different properties to be used for the same product and too verify the same level of performance.

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#8485 - 04/02/06 10:24 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Jerry said: "steel still meets the same specs but lot has changed,".

As long as the steel meets the same specifications, I guess I'll have to live with that. I have no hope in prevailing to get the specifications for steel changed. (Right now, I will be content to get some specificaitons for measuring these BADs established smile )

"all that needs happen is the lot changes…"

I can understand that. And I can make an analogy to ammunition. Ammunition can change from lot to lot. If you are a bench rest shooter, the small variance between lots can make a difference if you are trying to punch a tiny hole in a piece of paper. If you're just hunting rabbits, it's really not that critical.

If there are ready and reliable methods for circumventing these discrepancies, in practical application for the trapping community, I will gladly entertain them.

Otherwise I would purpose to test at least 12 BADs taken at random from a batch, and let the strength of those BADs be taken on the average.

And of course I am open to viable alternative solutions. The only thing I am opposed to, is letting this issue dangle in the wind.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8486 - 04/02/06 10:58 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
suggestion........or question.

Have you tested s hooks made from different manufacterors and of diffent metals w/ the same load weight ?

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#8487 - 04/02/06 11:25 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Sometimes (quite often smile ) I don't follow your questions.

Testing with a single load, or weight, doesn’t give a very clear picture. Let's take an example. I'll test with a 280 lb weight. Sample A picks up the weight every time. All I know is sample A has a BA of greater than 280# -- it could be 500# for all I know. Sample B never picks up the weight. All I know is sample B is less than 280# -- it might be 50# for all I know.

Wouldn't it be better to, using a standardized test, just test these other BADs, and determine where, within a reasonable degree of accuracy, they actually do break?

Now, with that said, why should I bear the responsibility of doing research and development for other manufacturers?

It's really not fair of you to ask if I tested someone else's device.

But it is quite within the realm of reason to ask them if they tested their device, and ask them how they tested it.

If there is another angle to this question, please clarify.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8488 - 04/02/06 05:15 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
Now, with that said, why should I bear the responsibility of doing research and development for other manufacturers?

Why ?? Simply because you have stepped forward in a quest to make everything revolving around BAD's easy to understand and standardized.

I applaud your efforts , to me you are on the right tract.....you just need to be tweeked a bit . As a outsider to the rules and regulations you are trying to simplify, I find myself questioning you for the ignorance of the trapping community. Remember, I have a knack about that........most of my comments need a disclaimer, "they are not neccesarily the beliefs of the poster"

Im just punchin holes in your theory, nothing more and nothing less.

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#8489 - 04/02/06 05:25 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Newt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 508
Loc: Port Republic,South Jersey & C...
Deer stop/BAD ?
"If" Im was snaring with cattle around I sure would want a BAD.
BUT
Who is going to spend the money to build the testing lab. Then eat, or charge the expences of everything else to test. Something that the Retail market world wide "might"(just a guess) only be $10,000.00
Example
The Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards (AIHTS). Up in Canada charges a trap manfacture.$2,500.00 for each species to run a test on their Computer Simulation Models (CSMs). This is for just 1 new trap stile. And It could cost more than $50,000.00 Useing live animal. Per New trap stile ,Per animal species.
You ant gona see me up there with a BAD in my hand to be tested. There just AINT NO MONEY in it.

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#8490 - 04/02/06 06:06 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Buzzard.. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
This thread has run its course, Im done as I dont have anything to give that I havent already.

I dont use any of the additives so my take is redundant and useless as far as help goes.

Go kill something......even if its a fish to eat .

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#8491 - 04/02/06 08:38 PM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 9914
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
:rolleyes: Sometimes I think I'm just talkin' to myself. frown

Newt: God bless you! Now we're on the right track.

We don't need no stinkin' test facility. And we don't need no thousands of dollars worth of nothin'. Buddy, if you really did want to develop some type of your own bad. You could do all the development and research, in the shop with a few tools. Like I said, a comealong, a scale and a few chains. The only thing special you might have to come up with is a 3 inch round bar to cinch the snare around. If you can get a piece of 2.5 inc steel water pipe, that is about 2.9" OD, and will give you some pretty accurate results.

All it will cost you is your time. When you are done. You could pay a small cost to get them tested "officially". You're going to be pretty sure of the results anyway. Have at it! In a industry as small as this one, we can't afford to stifle innovation. Including making innovation too expensive to pursue. Anybody can play here. You don't need money, just ambition.

Look, this test is so simple, anybody can do it. And there is documentation to show how this test evolved and how it relates to capturing coyotes and releasing large animals. I don't see how it can get much better than that -- a simple test that gives representative results.

And while the focus here has sort of been on the commercial aspects, the hobbyist could just as well use a test like this to make his own BADs and still be within his state’s laws.

Also, using these BADs has brought up a lot of questions. Collectively, maybe we can solve some of these problems, if we can all get on the same page. If I say I tested a system that broke at 240 pounds. The next guy could make an alteration and test, it and we could compare apples to apples because we used the same test.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#8492 - 04/03/06 05:09 AM Re: Break-Away S-hooks and 180? Locks
Mike Marchewka Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Crystal Lake,Illinois
Been pondering more BAD stuff...I started snaring using washer and sure locks. Later I read Dan Dezarn's book and used Gregarson's locks.
I found them difficult to work with, mostly because I didn't know much about snaring and I was used to the other locks.
Gregarson claimed these locks would "tear out" if an ungulate was caught by the leg. Later, he had his locks tested and the results were published.
Hal I would love for you to attempt to tear one of these locks out. The construction of the material is similar to a thin piece of sheet metal...pretty strong. The wording "saw out" was mentioned by some top snaremen as how this BAD system works. As the cable would cut through the thin metal of the lock when the captured animal attempts to free itself. Is there any application here to s-hook BAD systems...

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