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#9065 - 03/10/05 04:14 PM The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
What do you feel Is the main reason or reasons for sprung traps?
Now I'm talking about foot hold type traps where the trap just lays there sprung still In It's bed or out of the bed with no hair between the jaws and no catch circle.

I have some thoughts on the subject but I'd like to hear from some of you first.

Beav

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#9066 - 03/10/05 05:55 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
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#9067 - 03/10/05 06:18 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Gary: I don’t know what you’re fishing for but…

The obvious answer is that the dog and pan/notch engagement has not been executed properly. It was not sufficient to keep the trap from firing until such a time as the animal stepped on the pan.

But I sense you seek more.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#9068 - 03/10/05 09:18 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Mallard Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 391
Loc: Traverse City,Mi,USA
Much like whats been said. Pan creeping out of the notch over a period of time, perhaps finalized by the vibration of the truck door shutting, or so it would stand to reason. smile Slight downward bent dog, wax in notch, sloping notch (from filing a bad angle, no pan tension...etc. Just some thoughts.

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#9069 - 03/10/05 09:39 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Mudcat72 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 16
Loc: MS delta
Dogs will also throw a foot out of the trap if the pan isn't stepped on more squarely by the critter. Traps being pulled out their beds happens. I've had them pulled out and not even sprung, then walk up to it and push the pan and it go off just like it's supposed to.

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#9070 - 03/11/05 01:23 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Mallard Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 391
Loc: Traverse City,Mi,USA
Your turn Gary. smile

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#9071 - 03/13/05 10:47 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
All the above will cause sprung traps,but.
Lets say the set was worked and you have a sprung trap with no catch circle and litle or no hair In the trap.

This Is wher i'm coming from.Over the last few years I have been going to using 1.75 sized traps,I'm using these traps since I'm restricted to a trap size of a #2 or smaller on dry ground.
I catch my share of fox and cats and coyotes In these traps but I have also noticed I have a large % of snapped traps. In fact my buddy comented that if I had animals In all of my sprung traps The population would be extinct.

When i was using #2 square jawed bridgers I had very few sprung traps with no catch. I also found this to be true with 1.65 bridgers.
Then I started using 1.75 Dukes and the problem Increased.
Now the bridger traps have rectangular pans and there Is a fair amount of space between the inside of the loose jaw and the pan edge.The Duke pan Is In my opinion too large and Is the problem.
A coyote or red fox foot Is of a size that In 90% of the time that foot could be on the pan and a jaw at the same time with a trap with this size pan.

Many years ago one of the best fox trappers In WI gave me a bunch of his traps. The one thing I noticed was that all the pans were cut way down to about th esize of a silver dollar.These traps were the old #2 Victor square jawed fox traps.I asked him the reason he said that If a fox stepped on that sized pan It would be impossible for It to have It's foot on a jaw and be thrown out. He also said he had tracked patterns with no catch but also didn't have any thrown traps and he could live with that since he figured he would get the fox on the next time around.
I also found out over the years that the use of screen pan covers on large traps Is the way to go but It's use on small traps Is a big mistake.I think It goes back to the same problem,foot on jaw and pan at the same time.

Now I'm sure you will all tell me I have to do better guiding, I feel that's not the problem, Because Iv'e seen where the animal will step on the guides,walk on the piles of dirt at the edges of the set,well you know where I'm coming from.

So I'm about to set up some 1.75s with 1 1/2 sized pans and maybe a bit smaller.I feel I can afford to have some tracked patterns and have less sprung traps and shy fox and coyotes.
Now does any one know If 1 1/2 Duke pan assembly will adapt to a 1.75 or do I just have to cut down the pans.

Please come to the aid of a old trapper with too many sprung traps.

Beav

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#9072 - 03/13/05 11:37 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
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#9073 - 03/14/05 12:00 AM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
donwh Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/03
Posts: 401
Loc: Missouri
Not sure but think they will be fine. I think the #2 duke pan and the #1 3/4 pan is the same thing.
Anyway I just went out and put an extra 1 1/2 pan on one of my duke #2 traps. Looks like it would work great. Just gave me an idea for my #2's maybe....

While I got you here what do you do about the wimpy brass pan ajustment screw. I replaced mine with Stainless steel machine screws no washers. What is your thoughts. don

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#9074 - 03/14/05 01:04 AM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
I use the trappers cap on some of my sets.I still think that the animals foot will still be on the pan and the jaw and still have the same problem.

I buy a larger bolt and nut and drill out the origanal hole and replace with the larger bolt.
I belive you need to shim out the space between the pan posts with a washer so when you tighten up the bolt the posts will pull up even and give the same pressure on the whole face of the pan shank.

Beav

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#9075 - 03/14/05 02:07 AM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
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#9076 - 03/14/05 02:23 AM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Would the 1.75 be more effective With the addition of a smaller pan and the use of a trappers cap?

Beav

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#9077 - 03/14/05 01:57 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
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#9078 - 03/14/05 03:54 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
You might consisder just using increased pan tension.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#9079 - 03/14/05 05:09 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Mallard Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 391
Loc: Traverse City,Mi,USA
Increased pan tension + Night latch? I've gone away from pan covers completely with the night latch having alomost non-measurable drop before fireing, eliminating the possibility of creep. I originaly thought you were refering to non-visit sprung traps.

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#9080 - 03/14/05 06:02 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
getting started Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Mi
Vary interesting

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#9081 - 03/14/05 07:26 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
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#9082 - 03/16/05 05:44 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
I'm with Steve on the pan tension thing.
I just changed out some 1 1/2 victor pan assemblys and they fit perfect on my 1.75 Dukes. I like the looks, and I have about 1 1/2" between the Inside edge of the jaw to the edge of the pan. it will cost me around $1.00 to change out each trap so I may just cut down the old 1.75 pans.I think a coarse wheel on my side grinder would make short work of them.
Now I just have to wait till fall to test my theroy.

Beav

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#9083 - 03/16/05 09:23 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Putting smaller pans on traps sounds to me like a radical solution to a not so radical problem. When I suggested increased pan tension earlier, I wasn’t really advising that to Steve. I know what he has going on. The dirt packed hard around his pan, will support some of the weight of the coyote’s (for sake of argument) foot and keep the trap from firing if the foot is just touching the edge of the pan. But Steve’s not the one having trouble with fired traps.

Gary, you said: “I'm with Steve on the pan tension thing.” Well, unless you’ve changed your methods for setting pan tension, no you’re not. I’ve heard you suggest on multiple occasions here that you use no more pan tension than you get from tightening the bolt to just keep the pan from falling under it’s own weight. Well, that’s not very much pan tension – maybe a half-pound. I agree with Steve that pan tension on the order of 2 pounds measured in the center of the pan is about right for fox and coyotes.

It appears to me you are running less than a pound of tension on your traps. I just don’t think that’s enough for a canine trap. If anyone else came to me with this “fired trap” problem the first thing I would suggest is to increase the pan tension, not decrease the size of the trap pan.

With that said, reducing the size of the pans on your traps will help to alleviate some of this problem. But it still sounds like a lot more work than just cranking up the pan tension a little bit.

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#9084 - 03/17/05 01:49 AM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
The majority of my traps are set for fox but coyotes are moving In, In large numbers and I want to take them also. I also have to deal with large numbers of cats and with the price of cats I don't want to miss any.These are taxidermy cats.
So It seems to me raising the pan tension to 2 lbs to accomadate coyotes would be a little to much for the light footed cat and grey fox.So It seems to me that by cutting down on pan size Is not that much work.
I will go out and test a few of my traps with Hals tester and see where I'm at.I'll get back to you later.

Beav

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#9085 - 03/30/05 11:45 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
RdFx Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 119
Loc: wausau, wi, usa
Another thing to watch if working with pan tension is the pan shank where hole is drilled. THese are all stamped and on side of shank will be bulged from stamping and sometimes the other indented some. Take a file and file flat on both sides till file wears even material take off over whole shank over hole that fits into trap shank holder. This will give you even pressure on both sides of trap shank when tightening. Now if the shank holder is too big then brass washers fit on one or both sides to give even pressure as Beav said is in order.... Lets keep this post going... interesting im sure to some of the younger crowd like that HAL fella !!! wink

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#9086 - 03/31/05 01:36 AM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
Right on Rdfx, a very good point.
If you will look at the pan posts you will see that they are fastened solid to the trap frame.When you tighten the pan bolt only the top of the posts move and only put pressure on the very top part of the pan shank. This gives you false pan drop.
Drilling out the holes through the pan shank and pan posts and replacing the bolt with a larger one will help but It's not the whole problem.
You can also take a vise grips and crush the pan posts up against the shank but I would prefer to slove the problem with the shims.
Like Rdfx said you should file the inside of the pan posts and then shim so when you tighten up the post they will put even pressure on the whole surface of the pan shank.

I was out In the shed and tested some of my traps with Hals tension tester.Most of my traps had about 2lbs tension so I don't think adding more would help solve my sprung trap situation.

As to using the trappers cap.
I can see where by packing the dirt solid in between the jaws and the edge of the pan would decrease sprung traps. But would It cause you more misses? If the animals foot Is half on the pan and half on the packed dirt the trap In most cases won't go off and the trap jaw won't throw the foot from the trap. But does the animal shuffel It's foot and set off the trap or does It pick it's foot up and make another step and miss the pan all togeather?
I think with the smaller pan and a pan cover the trap will go off as soon as the foot encounters the pan.Also with the smaller pan you may be able to place some small guides Inside the jaws.
I have set up 2 doz 1.75s with 1 1/2 pans I like how they look.But only time will tell If it helps solve the problem.

Beav

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#9087 - 03/31/05 02:26 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
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#9088 - 03/31/05 03:36 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Gary: I was a little puzzled too by your question: …would It cause you more misses? If the animals foot Is half on the pan and half on the packed dirt the trap In most cases won't go off …

I thought the idea here was to have the trap not go off when the animal was standing on a jaw. If you’re going to put smaller pans on your traps then you too are going to get “more misses” in the same scenario because the critters foot won’t even reach the perimeter of your undersize pan. What’s the difference??

Packing the dirt around the pan and/or using increased pan tension both have the effect of making the trap “more difficult” to fire. That, I believe is the idea. Putting a smaller pan on the trap will also achieve this effect, because it makes a smaller target area, I cannot argue that. Like somebody said up top, a lot of old-time fox trappers used to do this, cut down their trap pans, but I thought this was primarily because they weren’t willing to use heavier pan tension. However, if you say you’ve got 2 pounds of tension on your traps and are still having problems, then I guess I’m not going to instill much confidence in this.

There are a couple of other things that have come up here. One of them is “foot guides”. I’m guessing that if you try to use foot guides inside the trap jaws, you’ll make the target spot too small and many critters will avoid it. I’m a big believer in using foot guides, but I’ve always used them outside the trap jaws. I usually place them just outside the jaw -- almost touching the outside of the jaw. This, I’ve figured was not only steering the animal’s foot toward the pan, but also aided in deterring the animal from putting its foot on the jaw itself, which helps to preclude the problem we are discussing here.

Gary: I’m curious. Originally, Duke 1.75 was the trap in question here. Is that the trap you have replaced the pans on? If so, what brand of pan did you use for a replacement?

smile -- Hal
_________________________
Endeavor to persevere.

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#9089 - 03/31/05 06:38 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
I replaced the pans on the 1.75 Dukes with 1 1/2 Victor pans. Worked perfect.

Beav

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#9090 - 03/31/05 06:39 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
RiverOtter Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 646
Loc: Monashee Mtns, British Columbi...
Very good thread, I've been out to my shed a few times to check my traps now.

I had a problem similar to Beavs, traps sprung by yotes, but only tracks at the set and sometimes a bit of hair. I had been using aluminum screen covers on my pans. This was making a false pan that was to big for the trap since the screen was a bit stiff. I switched to canvas and most of the problem was solved. I also increased my pan tension a bit. Like others have already stated, tracks near the pan are far better than sprung traps and no critter.

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#9091 - 03/31/05 11:21 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Now, y’all made me go measure. frown

What set this off was I reread the post above where Gary said he didn’t seem to notice this as much with Bridger traps.

I measured three traps in four configurations. Measurement #1 was taken straight off the end of the pan, to the inside of the loose jaw. Measurement #2 was taken off the “corner” of the pan (the Bridger and Victor #1.75 pans are not round) to the point where it comes closest to the jaw. (Duke and Vic #1.75’s have the same measurements.)

Duke #1.75, and Vic #.175. Inside J.S. 5” -- M1= 1- 1/4”, M2 = 1-1/8”

Bridger #1.65. Inside J.S. 5” -- M1 = 1-3/8”, M2 = 1-1/4”

Duke #1.75 with 1.5 Vic. Pan (round) -- M1 = 1-3/8”, M2 = 1-3/8”

So putting the 1.5 pans on the Duke 1.75 makes them more nearly equal to the stock BD 1.65. I agree with Gary, that trap looks good, but who wants to throw away all the Duke 1.75 pans and buy new ones? Part of the economy in Duke traps is their low cost, and this kinda defeats the purpose.

Gary: Here’s another question. Are you sacrificing the new “low profile” Duke pan position by using these Victor pans. The one I put on stuck up above the jaws like the old design Duke pans. If you’re bound and determined to do this, wouldn’t you be better off to put Duke 1.5 low profile pans on these traps?

confused -- Hal
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#9092 - 04/01/05 02:29 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
I had a bunch of old John Deer 1 1/2s setting around yes the pans do set a little high.
I have a contact who said he would take all my 1.75 pans and laser cut them down to my specs,so that problem Is solved.
Here's my thoughts on the small pans.
If I can keep the animals foot off the pan and the jaw at the same time I can reduce the amount of sprung traps.

The sweet spot Is still the sweet spot,the animal still has to step on the pan to spring the trap. Yes It may be smaller, but the size of a 1 1/2 pan and a 1.75 pan are not all that different In square Inches It's just the configuration of the pan and how It lays In relationship to the jaw edges.

Beav

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#9093 - 04/01/05 02:40 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Are you going to cut the "back" as well as the front off the pans to make them truly round?

confused -- Hal
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Endeavor to persevere.

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#9094 - 04/01/05 10:39 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
The Beav Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 509
Loc: Oregon WI
I have re thought my plan. I have tons of weaker 1 1/2s that I use for rats and mink.The 1 1/2 pans will go on the 1.75s and the 1.75 pans will go on my 1 1/2 rat and mink traps.They work perfect and I have now Improved my rat and mink traps with the larger kill area of the 1.75 pans.

I adjusted the 1.75s with the 1 1/2 pans and then layed a straight edge across the pan and measured down to the jaw faces, the pan only sets 1/8" higher then the jaws. I can live with that.

I even removed the pan on a #2 Bridger and replaced It with a Victor 1 1/2 pan. It's a bit extream even for me I think I'll leave them with the #2 Bridger pan

But I just might fool around with putting some smaller pans on my large beaver traps.
Trapping season Is over and I'm bored LOL

Beav

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#9095 - 04/03/05 05:30 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps?
Hal Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 10227
Loc: Blue Creek, Ohio, USA
Update: I thought this was the case, but didn’t want to say anything until I checked.

I dug out an old #2 Victor square jaw. It has (for all intents and purposes) the same exact pan on it as the current Duke and Victor #1.75. Problem being – the old Vic #2 is a 5.5” trap while the Duke and Vic #1.75 are both 5” traps. I don’t know what part production convenience and/or copy cat design plays in this but… In my opinion, a 5” trap ought to have a different size pan than a 5.5” trap.

Chances are I’m not going to be replacing many pans on my own traps, but I can see where the two traps in question could stand to have a slightly smaller pan on them. Too bad the manufacturers don’t supply them that way.

smile -- Hal
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Endeavor to persevere.

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#21324 - 12/12/14 06:41 PM Re: The Main Reason for Sprung Traps? [Re: The Beav]
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